Lip Licking And Food Obsession

[flycow]

I'm getting quite desperate lately, need some ideas.

Diva has been very obsessed with food, being a lab I'm not surprise. She has this bad habit of licking lips (sometimes swallow too) at the wrong times. Every command I give she licks her lips. So the sequence go, Sit *lick*, stand *lick*, drop *double lick* *lick agian*.

Obviously using food treats as reward has caused this. It's not an issue with us initially but at four years old now it has gone worse, way worse. She's totally obsessed with the licking that she couldn't focus on simple instructions sometimes, she'll go *lick* *swallow* *lick somemore* *look around for food* *lick* then look at me. "Mum what is it you want me to do again?"

I started clicker training with her two weeks ago, at the same time with my budgie. Now my budgie has made progress. But Diva as gone backwards, she has associated the clicker with licking! So it became, sit - lick - click - double lick - look at mum.

Can somebody direct me to any threads that's mentioned this kind of obsession before?

Also I want to wean her off food treats with other things, like playing with a ball instead. Has anybody succeeded with weaning a Lab off treat rewards?

[Staranais]

Are you sure it's the food? Some dogs lick their lips when they are nervous. It's a type of displacement or calming behaviour.

[persephone]

I have never trained a lab using treats ( have never done clicker either, so cannot really help ) I just use voice/praise

However- are you sure she is licking because of the food? It's not anxiety related? Does she lick when you give normal voice commands only?

Edited August 26, 2010 by persephone

[persephone]

*snap* staranais.

[flycow]

I'm fairly certain its the food although not 100% sure. She's in the pink of health, extremely calm and laid back dog. She doesn't lick when she plays, not when I ask her to come to me, to hang around me etc. But we can't do any proper training at all. She'll lick because she knows there's a treat at the end of either the command or the session. So she does what's required peppered with licks and swallows.

[Nekhbet]

she's too obsessed. Give her a good feed and start using praise rewards instead.

[flycow]

Can I use clicker with praise as reward? How do I do that?

[Nekhbet]

I would say you need to start again. SHe's conditioned now to associate the clicker with food and probably the sight of it will trigger a food response from her. Why dont you try YES as a marker instead?

[Staff'n'Toller]

Lip smacking due to stress would be my first thought and I think you could actually use the clicker to get her out of it too.

Labs train up fine with food but I have found you don't need to train on an empty stomach, and you can use lower value foods with them so they are not so focused on it. Liver is generally as high as I go where as my base foods for other dogs would be chicken loaf, dried fish etc.

If you find she is too obsessed with the food it's really going to be more about changing your schedule of reinforcement.

[PAX]

Could you click her when she's not licking??

[flycow]

Could you click her when she's not licking??

That will be quite difficult as the moment she thinks it's a training (means me giving her a more than say three commands) she starts licking, eager though, she loves training.

[flycow]

Lip smacking due to stress would be my first thought and I think you could actually use the clicker to get her out of it too.

Labs train up fine with food but I have found you don't need to train on an empty stomach, and you can use lower value foods with them so they are not so focused on it. Liver is generally as high as I go where as my base foods for other dogs would be chicken loaf, dried fish etc.

If you find she is too obsessed with the food it's really going to be more about changing your schedule of reinforcement.

how can I tell if she's stress? she so loves to do all the basic sits and stands for food, what I observed anyway. It's quite consistant since pup, nothing has changed, only the licking got into the process somehow and got worsen. I seriously couldn't recall when it started happening, only noticing it late last year when she's 3.5yrs.

[flycow]

I would say you need to start again. SHe's conditioned now to associate the clicker with food and probably the sight of it will trigger a food response from her. Why dont you try YES as a marker instead?

I tried yes and yay etc before, I'm willing to do it again. We didn't have much results previously as she got quickly conditioned with voice praises and tuned it out. The reason why I tried the clicker.

[PAX]

Could you click her when she's not licking??

That will be quite difficult as the moment she thinks it's a training (means me giving her a more than say three commands) she starts licking, eager though, she loves training.

Is there any opportunity to click the not licking, maybe after one command? Yo yo it around.

Is there a reason why licking is so bad?

You should be clicking intermittently so she doesn't get concerned.

Are you sure it's not due to stress?

[PAX]

We need video

[flycow]

Is there any opportunity to click the not licking, maybe after one command? Yo yo it around.

Is there a reason why licking is so bad?

You should be clicking intermittently so she doesn\'t get concerned.

Are you sure it\'s not due to stress?

To be honest I\'m not sure if it\'s not due to stress, I think highly unlikely but I\'m listening. This dog is hardly ever stressed about anything, she ignores things going with the neighbours, firecrackers, airplane noise, loud music, it seems nothing much stresses her.

The licking is not BAD to me even though it\'s annoying. The only worry I have is that it has worsen and it distracted her like a mental block, she couldn\'t even think straight when doing the act. So I thought if it\'s not a good thing I\'ll like to nip it now.

Is there any opportunity to click the not licking, maybe after one command? Yo yo it around.

Hey I will give this a go.

Edited August 26, 2010 by flycow

[PAX]

I am flying blind, but knowing other clicker trained Labs I would guess she is just getting anxious about the reward or nervous about the delay of the reward.

If you want to clicker train you need to set your criteria, seems you don't want the licking so just need to work on that and don't lump the training.

Have a goal before you train what your plan is and stick to that, don't get greedy. We all tend to get greedy, I know I do.

If you don't want licking, click before you get licking.

[corvus]

When my dogs are anticipating food they drool rather than lip lick. They do drool during training sometimes. I'd be leaning towards the anxiety theory as well. Some dogs lip lick at surprisingly low levels of stress or anxiety. Erik will do it in training if he's unsure of himself. Usually means I need to raise my reward rate.

[flycow]

I'd be leaning towards the anxiety theory as well. Some dogs lip lick at surprisingly low levels of stress or anxiety.

You may be right here, possibly anxiety and eagerness.

I am flying blind, but knowing other clicker trained Labs I would guess she is just getting anxious about the reward or nervous about the delay of the reward.

If you want to clicker train you need to set your criteria, seems you don't want the licking so just need to work on that and don't lump the training.

Have a goal before you train what your plan is and stick to that, don't get greedy. We all tend to get greedy, I know I do.

If you don't want licking, click before you get licking. :D

that's a very good point PAX, I totally didn't realise the need to break it down and set a goal. Ok I think I'll have a proper plan what to achieve and how to go about it.

Thanks dolers, appreciate your words, that should get me going for the time being. I'll bookmark this thread and come back for more input in future.

Edited August 26, 2010 by flycow

[Nekhbet]

oh my rottie licks his lips. Its a PITA when I'm in the kitchen he rushes over, quickly does a perfect sit then starts licking his lips and gluping like he's about to get everything on the stove or plate. He's so food obsessed. Shits me to tears actually I just hate the noise

He's quiet for food rewards now as I give them to him as a surprise. I dont use a clicker the dogs got too distracted by it :D dont have "I have food in my hand/pocket" body language and see how that works too.