Buyer Beware

[Bokezu]

SO who has the control to do something to stop these people from breeding????????????????? Again, dog shows !!!!! What about the health and welfare of these animals?? what about breeding to improve the breed? Where are the priorities....... must be with the dogs that look good and can produce more good looking dogs hey.

won't get into specifics but a very ignorant and ill informed response, blaming show people now for one sick dog.

Breeders of Show dogs have reputations to uphold, we sell dogs all over Aus and some to overseas, the health of our dogs is paramount, believe me word travels fast in the dog world, that is why we do all the health testing before we would even consider breeding. Most ethical registered breeders do breed to improve the breed, can't speak for the breeder you bought your puppy from, but she did offer you a refund, so that to me is an ethical response to the situation. Apart from letting you keep the dog which she wouldn't do, what else could she have done to make you feel satisfied with the whole situation?

[shortstep]

selling the puppy on a legally drawn up sales contract would have helped avoid the situation that eventually arose. I find discussing possible remedies before things actually go wrong is a huge help.

Sylvia

Words to live by!

Thanks for chiming in Sylvia. I agree that is always difficult when it is such an emotional issue as a sick puppy.

I am assuming the parents were not DNA tested for Retinal folds and dwarfism. It will be good to know why Ollie says her dog has dwarfism. Perhaps she does have a Dx for that from a vet or even a DNA test on her pup. When I looked up the short ulna and radius curvus syndrome Dx that she gave, it linked straight into the Rental Fold Dwarfism disease. So there may be some further connection she has become aware of.

OCD these days is often thought of as a disease of tendencies rather than a disease of a certain defective gene. These tendencies increase the risk in certain dogs or certain breeds. Labs are at risk for OCD.

Some of the risk factors are,

large size and or heavy bone,

over weight,

males,

periods of rapid growth (4-9 months of age),

poor shoulder structure.

The second factor seems to be trauma. This trauma can be cause by an injury, or by what would appear minor repetitive exercises (such as regular stair climbing) and are complicated by the above risk factors such as rapid growth, heavy bones and so on.

However OCD can also be associated with deformities of the joint/s, such as dwarfism. In this case it would secondary to the deformity of joint caused by dwarfism, not the other way around.

Certainly expert education of the new puppy owner in breeds that OCD is found in can help in it's prevention and is just one way a registered breeder can stand out from the unregistered breeder.

I do hope the Ollie comes back and helps us to all understand.

Edited September 6, 2010 by shortstep

[Jed]

Ollie waffle, if you purchase from a decent registered breeder, you purchase from someone who has had available tests done for prevalent diseases in the breed. You purchase from someone who knows what the temperament and conformation of the dog should be and breeds for that, as well as for health. You are also purchasing from someone who knows, and can tell you, who the ancestors of the dog are, and it is very likely that you will be able to see photos of ancestors.

If you purchase from byb or puppy farm, you are purchasing from someone who has no idea of the lineage of the dogs, and either has no knowledge, or couldn't be bothered,with health testing. You are purchasing from someone who probably neither knows nor cares about the health, temperament or conformation of the dog.

The choice is yours.

However, which ever choice you make, there is NO guarantee that the pup you purchase wont sicken, or develop a hereditary problem, or a non hereditary problem.

Any animal, of any type or class can develop a problem, no matter how much care and consideration was given to breeding the animal by the breeder.

It's very difficult when a well loved pup is sick, and it is difficult not to want to apportion blame.

Unfortunately, certain sections of the media have led the public to believe they are entitled to only 100% healthy animals, which can never be, no matter how much care is taken.

And I can add my 5c worth about what should have happened between buyer and breeder post diagnosis, but I wont because that's in the past and didn't happen, and none of us have any idea why not, so it would not be fair to comment.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Jed

[oakway]

My thoughts on this matter have already been said by many before me.

Always remember we have problems that crop up in people from time to time and that alone can be difficult to eradicate. Even more so in some animals.

Please do not ask dog breeders for more than they can give.

Reputable reliable breeders are doing everything in their power to eradicate any problems that do come up, but it does take time.

[asal]

My thoughts on this matter have already been said by many before me.

Always remember we have problems that crop up in people from time to time and that alone can be difficult to eradicate. Even more so in some animals.

Please do not ask dog breeders for more than they can give.

Reputable reliable breeders are doing everything in their power to eradicate any problems that do come up, but it does take time.

although you spoken well, the last words "but it does take time" do give the idea that in time all genetic disasters can be eliminated. it aint going to happen in our lifetimes if ever.

nature likes change, even now mutations are being detected, recent mutations

so how long is a piece of string

[oakway]

My thoughts on this matter have already been said by many before me.

Always remember we have problems that crop up in people from time to time and that alone can be difficult to eradicate. Even more so in some animals.

Please do not ask dog breeders for more than they can give.

Reputable reliable breeders are doing everything in their power to eradicate any problems that do come up, but it does take time.

although you spoken well, the last words "but it does take time" do give the idea that in time all genetic disasters can be eliminated. it aint going to happen in our lifetimes if ever.

nature likes change, even now mutations are being detected, recent mutations

so how long is a piece of string

Asal,

Who knows what may happen in the future, it may only be limited by our imaginations.

[dancinbcs]

Thank you all for your replies.

All were interesting to read.

My aim was to see what advice people would offer prior to a sale.

I have a lab. I purchased him as a gift for my 10yr old daughter who has wanted a lab puppy for 2 years. I bought him from a registered breeder. At 4 months he was diagnosed with short ulna and radius curvus syndrome caused from a form of OCD.

He is also a dwarf dog.

The breeder offered to refund my money if i returned our pup. NO way was this an option. This pup was part of our family. What was the breeder planning to do? Have it put down? wasnt it better this pup stayed with a loving family???

We have spent $11K to fix some health problems related to these genetic issues.

Both owners of the Sire & Dam do not want to know about the issues. Ive been in contacted with relevant dog council however they say they have no authority to stop these people breeding this Sire & Dam that produced such nasty genetic diseases. Thye both need to be de-sexed and so does all the litter mates.

The owner of the Sire referred to our situation as a debacle and told us never to contact her again .....

So please explain to me - how are these registered breeders any better than a back yard breeder?????????????????????????

Have just come back and had a look at this thread. First Ollie Waffle you would have had a lot more sympathy hear if you had been honest in the first place and asked the real questions you wanted answers to.

I am sorry you have had this experience with a puppy but as others have already explained no breeder, no matter how much they health test, can guarantee that a puppy won't suffer from some rare health problem and just because a problem occurs it does not make it hereditary. Having been involved in genetic test development for my breed I can tell you that you need at least 5 or 6 cases of a problem within the same line of dogs before the geneticists will even consider looking at it as hereditary. Not all heredtary problems are the same either. some need to be carried by both parents but others can be passed on by one parent. Until breeders know the exact mode of inheritence then removing all related dogs from breeding is just asking for more problems from narrowing the gene pool.

You stated "At 4 months he was diagnosed with short ulna and radius curvus syndrome caused from a form of OCD.

I have known of 2 dogs in my breed with short ulna and curved radius syndrome and it had nothing to do with OCD which can also occur in our breed and seems to be caused much more by diet and environment with only a small genetic component. Both puppies were from the same mother and the very experienced breeder and all her contacts and vets had never seen it in our breed before and had no idea what caused it. When the owner of the first affected puppy came back to the breeder, the damage was too great to be fixed and the puppy was euthanased. The breeder replaced the puppy.

The breeder did a lot of research and when the dam had her next litter she warned all the puppy buyers about the problem she had encountered in the first litter and asked them to contact her at the first sign of the legs bowing. One puppy was affected and with the help of canine nutritionists the puppy was put on a completely different diet and the problem corrected completely. This highly reputable breeder bred about 500 puppies over 30 years and provided foundation stock to many other kennels but I have never heard of this problem with the legs ever occuring again in the breed. It may have had a small genetic component that caused the puppy to metabolise it's food differently to the others in the litter but it was clearly not a simple recessive genetic problem.

You also stated "He is also a dwarf dog"

But have not answered the question of what type of dwarfism it is and how it has been diagnosed. Dwarfism comes in several different forms and affects different breeds in different parts of the world. In 27 years in the world of purebred dogs I have never seen one so assume in most breeds it is pretty rare here in Australia. Even if a certain line of dogs in one country have it occuring it does not necessarily follow that it needs to be tested for in other countries, assuming that a test has been made available. Of course if a test is available it would only be for one form of dwarfism and another form of it can still occur randomly in a breed at any time.

Again, I am sorry this happened to your dog but I believe the breeder did the right thing, offering a refund and requesting the puppy be returned at 4 months. This would have allowed her to have the case researched properly and if the condition could not be fixed the puppy should have been euthanased. Then you would not have had to spend $11,000 and further ongoing costs on this puppy. Dogs have multiple offspring because nature never intended for them all to survive and sometimes you have to make the sensible decision with a puppy, that this one was just not meant to be. All the money you have spent has been entirely your decision and has nothing to do with the breeder. Her decision about breeding on from her dogs or not, I'm sure will be very carefully considered after much research. No one in their right mind just ignores something like this and keeps breeding without weighing up all options after much research to try to work out what went wrong.