Buyer Beware

[ollie waffle]

Hi,

We are looking at purchasing a pup. Heading in the direction of a labrador.

After conducting some research on the net and reading stories about hereditary diseases(ocd, dwarfism etc) as a result of bad genes and inbreeding can someone please point out the benefits of buying from a registered breeder rather then a pet shop

I understand breeders carry out hip, elbow and eye testing however as I understand it from my research this is only required once - at an age of either 12 months or 2 years. What if the sire / dam receives good results at this time but these issues present themselves later on in the animals life... 2.5 years of age or 4 years of age and the sire and dam are still being bred.

What happens if i purchase a puppy and its in good health but 6 months later symptoms start and he is diagnosed with a hereditary disease?

[Dogsfevr]

Not sure what you have actually researched or read??

Hips/elbows are what they are when rayed,if there bad there bad.

Eyes are tested yearly unless the dogs have been DNA cleared iF both parents are dna clear they can't produce PRA.

Hips & elbows can crop up even from clear parents but it is a good start.

There is also the owner aspect that can play havoc there too.

As to who to buy from that is purely up to you ??

What guarantee does the pet shop give??

Do they show all testing of the puppies parents??

How do you now there pure labs??

What will the temps be like without seeing the parent/parents??

What long term help will they give you for questions ??

Surely as you have reserached you would sooner by a pup from a breeder that does health test & is fully aware of the issues & striving to minimize the issue than to by from a pet shop that doesn,t care ???

I would sooner rescue a lab pup from the pound or rescue then buy through a pet shop & take my chances of what i get.

You pay the same price if not more through most pet shops with no history Just a pup & off you go.

Breeding dogs is a dedication & good ethical breeders do there upmost to breed no issues BUT just like humans things can happen.

Just as many pet owners who don;t listen tpo there breeder suggestion can create on going issues .

[ollie waffle]

Thanks for your reply. Do registered breeders offer a guarantee?

i am asking if additional support is provided by registered breeders.. or is similar ... theres your pup and off you go

I wouldnt suggest that all breeders that are not registered dont care about the dogs and have no ethics?

Dont get me wrong I am DEAD against puppy farms & cruelty to any animal.

I understand there are basic tests that need to be carried out but these tests cover a minimal percent of genetic diseases....as you stated... as with human anything could happen.

On the flip side, some could suggest that registered breeders breed their dogs for shows/competition...and the dogs that dont meet those standards are sold.

If a pup purchased from a registered breeder that does produce a hereditary disease what happens then? Sorry, this is what i was trying to get at in my first post...

[t-time]

If a pup purchased from a registered breeder that does produce a hereditary disease what happens then?

I'll throw it right back at you and say what happens if you buy a *Lab* from a pet shop and it develops a hereditary disease? ;)

Some breeders do offer health guarantees and some don't - so find someone who does offer money back for genetic problems.

All registered Labrador breeders are required to have a certain level of health testing performed on the parents which is certainly not the case with a pet store or a pup bred willy-nilly in someone backyard because they thought the kids should see puppies being born or something stupid. Registered breeders have a Code of Ethics.

The majority of registered breeders do want some level of feedback even if this means a Xmas card with a photo or a phone call every day such is the relationships I have developed with some of my new owners- and the majority of breeders most certainly offer you support if you are experiencing any issues with your new puppy. In fact most WANT to know if you are experiencing any issues. Once again, pet shops or Back Yard Breeders certainly don't give a toss once they've got the money in their fist and you walk out the door with the puppy.

there are basic tests that need to be carried out but these tests cover a minimal percent of genetic diseases

Yes, but we are not superhuman and we haven't got Xray vision We can only test for particular issues because in most cases, science hasn't figured out a way to make a genetically perfect canine (or pig, or horse or human) Breeders can only do their best to ensure healthy happy puppies.

On the flip side, some could suggest that registered breeders breed their dogs for shows/competition...and the dogs that dont meet those standards are sold.

Yep that's more or less correct but it's highly unlikely in most cases that an untrained eye would be able to explain what those differences between a show specimen and a "pet" actually are! Someone who shows or breeds for working dogs or agility are certainly going to try and breed for a great specimen of the breed for their own purposes. If you are only just beginning to look at purchasing a labrador puppy - try going and viewing a whole litter of 10 Black Lab pups and figure out which one is best. ;) Unless you know the breed inside and out, you wouldn't be able to tell. A fault for the showring could be something as minor as a mismark in colour on one foot!!

Go and check out the Labrador breeders on the breed pages - there are a couple of hundred I believe - start looking at breeders closest to you - check out the puppy notices - find a breeder you get along with - ask about health guarantees but remember that nothing is perfect in life - keep going until you find the right breeder for you and certainly don't be swayed to purchasing the first cute Lab you see (an impulse buy) - they are hard to resist but with the questions you are asking I think finding the right breeder will be most important.

[Ceilidh]

On the flip side, some could suggest that registered breeders breed their dogs for shows/competition...and the dogs that dont meet those standards are sold.

I would suggest that dogs that ethical breeders sell because they don't meet the standard as well as others in the litter still meet the standard a hell of a lot more than your byb, puppy farmer, pet shop.

[shortstep]

Can give a little information on HD and COI. I think no matter what type of breeder, be it purebred register breeder or breeder of unregistered dogs, working breeders or show breeders, you would ask the same questions.

Checking OFA Orthopedic Foundation for Animals in the US for Hip dysplaisa, 208931 labs have been scored and 17% had excellent hips and 12% had hip dysplasia. Reporting is voluntary and many will not report affected dogs, so most experts believe you could double the affected rate and not be too far off.

Australia will have a hip score average, this tells you what all the reported scores average out to be, it does not tell you the affected rate in the population. I am not sure if Labs have mandatory reporting (mandatory reporting means all xrays taken by vets must be submitted even if owner refuses).

HD is a multi gene disease, likely being a combination of direct genes that cause the disease and genes that increase the risk of the disease but do not directly cause it. There are believed to be at least 6 genes at play. Diet and exercise can also affect the severity of the disease. This makes it very difficult to predict which pairs of parents can produce it.

Some rule of thumbs

All parents, grand parents, great grand parents (I would think in labs at least back 5 generations should have been scored. You should ask for all the scores.

You should also ask for a lateral pedigree for HD and ED (elbow dysplasia), where all the scores of all offspring and siblings for each generation are recorded (also the total number of pups that each dog had). The more dogs scored normal the better, the more dogs not scored or scored not normal the higher the risk. Many breeders can not supply you with these records, some should be able to, so that is something to consider. Another words you need to look at the whole family (as many generations as possible of siblings, aunts, uncles, even half sibs and cousins) not just the parents. The bigger and more complete the genetic family picture the better the prediction.

No breeder, no matter how hard they try can prevent HD. They can however use all of the latest surveillance methods and be able to show you exactly what is happening with HD in the family of dogs that are the parents of your pup. Guarantees revolve around what they will do if the dog is affected.

Please note that accurate and verifiable pedigree information is vital for the above HD screening to happen or for you as the buyer to review the breeding practice.

edited to add;

Your concern about dogs being scored normal and then later getting HD. A normal hip score at just after 12 months is something like 97% accurate for staying normal through the life of the dog (last study I look at had xrays taken at 8 months 97% accurate for normal/affected at 5 years of age) . The risk is so very low as to not bother retaking later xrays, provided the dog had a low score at 12 months or older (lets say a total score of 12 or under with neither hip with a score over 6 total or 4 in any area).

You would only become concerned if at 12 months the dog had a poor or borderline dysplastic score, (lets say total 15-20) then it would be best to not breed the dog at all or to wait till the dog is over 2 years of age and score it again depending on the breed. If there was further decline then the dog should not be bred.

Inbreeding is something else you can ask for information on. What you need to see is (at least) a 6 generation pedigree with COI's for the pup and all dogs in the 6 generations.

COI is the level of inbreeding for a dog. It tells how closely each of it's parents are related. Each breed should have a breed average for COI and you need to make sure you are looking at the same number of generations and in my opinion at least 6 generation. (I do not know what that is for labs in Australia).

You can also ask the breeder what they are doing to lower COI. Those breeders who are looking at COI will usually try to reduce the COI in each generation and will usually have a goal of reducing the COI below that of the parents and below that of the breed average in each generation until the reach 0%. It is fairly common to find dogs in the 1-2% range COI for 6 generations (written COI-6 = 1.5%) and these would be considered low levels of inbreeding. Australia has no controls on inbreeding.

Please note that accurate and verifiable pedigree information is vital for the above calculations on COI to happen or for you as the buyer to review the breeding practice.

Edited August 25, 2010 by shortstep

[Christina]

No one can guarantee 100% that a genetic issue will not occur however registered breeder is the way to go.

Choose a breeder that has had the genetic tests done, that are possible for the breed, & can show you the results.

Ask what health guarantee is given. It is usually quite good.

There is a code of ethics & someone to complain to if it is needed.

Visit the breeder & be sure you are happy & confident with everything.

A pet shop puppy can come from anywhere & have been raised in any conditions. You have no way of knowing.

The parents may be purebred or have a bit of some other breed in there but look pure. You have no way of knowing.

Genetic tests will not have been done, neither will they have kept track of litters & researched pedigrees & breeders before breeding the 2 dogs.

You may have a 7 day health guarantee.

No code of ethics & you deal with the shop if things go amiss. Good luck there.

Not all puppies from registered breeders that go to pet homes are not worthy of showing or have a fault. It may be the breeders preference for a pet home & to just retain what puppies they want for themselves.

My puppies go to their new homes desexed & many are worthy of show, my choice.

You have the choice but must see that pet shop is not the best. For every puppy sold it promotes the trade & many puppies are sourced from places you would not believe. It is a business so they will not tell you.

If you are not happy with a breeder you just say no thank you & find one you are happy with. There are some great breeders out there so go check some out & post a photo of your gorgeous new puppy for us.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Christina

[Mystiqview]

OW,

Show and pet as already explained could be a wrong colour on one foot. In my breed, a blue eye (happens naturally) and has no ill effects to the dog's eyesight is a disqualifying score for breed/show. I know many a breeder who looked at a puppy at 8 weeks and gone OMG how outstanding!!... EXCEPT is has a blue eye and therefore MUST be put into a pet home.

Please do not mistake show and pet quality as good and inferior. They may certainly not be. What is rejected by an ethical breeder as pet quality, can and probably is still far better quality to what you get in a pet store or BYB. Many breeders prefer to sell what they don't keep as potential show dogs as pets. I am one. The fact is, we cannot keep everything we breed and many breeders while wanting to run on two or more puppies from a litter to see who is better just don't have the room in their back yard (or permit requirements) to do so.

As also mentioned, we do test. BYB and pet shops don't. Many breeders also know of certain issues pertinent to certain lines. Some are minor, some can be more serious. Some issues do not have a DNA test to positively identify carriers of those issues. It is done by selectively breeding dogs known to NOT Have produced it, or not doubling up on certain dogs SUSPECT of producing it. For many years, this was how we worked with CL in border collies until a DNA test was devised. Known carriers were not allowed to be be bred with or doubled up on within a certain 3, 5, or 7 generation pedigree to try to limit the occurrence of the disorder. Dogs were not also allowed to be bred with before 2 years of age as that was when it would generally come to the surface of a dog having the disorder.

Guarantee/Warrantee is a hard one to really pin down. I would say it is not like a guarantee from an appliance store if you buy a faulty toaster. Remember you are buying a living, breathing organism. Even despite the breeder's best intentions, efforts and everything else, a pup may fall down to a genetic problem NO-ONE has ever heard before or come down with something that has a chance of occurring 100:1 and you were that unlucky 100th.

However most ethical breeders will and DO want to know if their progeny comes down with a genetic issue. They/you may not be able to do anything about it, but information is valuable and it may prevent that combination from happening again (Sire/dam) or identify a new issue within a breed.

Ethical breeders do eat, sleep and breath the breed they are involved in. They are continually studying and learning about developments in genetic science, participating in breed clubs and trying to keep their breeds healthy and active and keep new people to the breed honest and as keen as they are about looking after the breed for the betterment and keeping the breed healthy for many years to come.

I also suggest starting locally with your breeders. Do some more research and have a look at their dogs, and get to know the breed from the inside. Some of the best and most valuable information out there is sitting inside a breeder's head and not on the internet or picture breed books. Get to know the Brilliant, good, bad and damn ugly of the breed. Go and have a look at the parent(s) [not everyone keeps the sire at home in preference of using an outside dog] of the litter without the temptation of pups there. Also have a look at the parents/pups, even if the whole litter is sold. Again it limits the temptation to buy a fluffy puppy now and makes you go away and think about that breeder and your decision.

Really examine what YOU want from your pup. What kind of personality do you want? I think this is the most important, before colour and sex. Do you want a boisterous pup or something more sedate? In some breeds/lines boys can be more sedate than girls and vice versa in other breeds/lines. What is the breeder breeding for? IF they are breeding for working ability and you want a sedate pup, are they the right breeder for you? Again in my breed there are some fantastic breeders who breed for performance and have really good dogs.. But the drive and personality of their animals may not suited to a very laid back household as they will not be able to offer the pup the mental stimulation it requires.

IF you breeder has done health testing, I would strongly recommend that you ask to see original relevant paperwork and ask about registrations (Main/Limit) and when do you expect to expect the pedigree papers for your puppy. Do not be alarmed if they are not ready when you pick up your puppy at 8 weeks. Each state has different rules to registering pups. In Qld for example, we can register pups straight into new owners names. so if we are waiting to sell one or two puppies in a litter, we may wait until all pups are sold before sending in the paperwork to our Canine Council. So it could take a couple of weeks before you get your papers. If you have a question whether if they are registered, you can ring the canine council the breeder resides in and ask if they are financial. YOu will not get too much information due to privacy laws, but you should know whether they are financial and if they have sent in the paperwork for the pup you have just bought.

[oakway]

OW,

Show and pet as already explained could be a wrong colour on one foot. In my breed, a blue eye (happens naturally) and has no ill effects to the dog's eyesight is a disqualifying score for breed/show. I know many a breeder who looked at a puppy at 8 weeks and gone OMG how outstanding!!... EXCEPT is has a blue eye and therefore MUST be put into a pet home.

Please do not mistake show and pet quality as good and inferior. They may certainly not be. What is rejected by an ethical breeder as pet quality, can and probably is still far better quality to what you get in a pet store or BYB. Many breeders prefer to sell what they don't keep as potential show dogs as pets. I am one. The fact is, we cannot keep everything we breed and many breeders while wanting to run on two or more puppies from a litter to see who is better just don't have the room in their back yard (or permit requirements) to do so.

As also mentioned, we do test. BYB and pet shops don't. Many breeders also know of certain issues pertinent to certain lines. Some are minor, some can be more serious. Some issues do not have a DNA test to positively identify carriers of those issues. It is done by selectively breeding dogs known to NOT Have produced it, or not doubling up on certain dogs SUSPECT of producing it. For many years, this was how we worked with CL in border collies until a DNA test was devised. Known carriers were not allowed to be be bred with or doubled up on within a certain 3, 5, or 7 generation pedigree to try to limit the occurrence of the disorder. Dogs were not also allowed to be bred with before 2 years of age as that was when it would generally come to the surface of a dog having the disorder.

Guarantee/Warrantee is a hard one to really pin down. I would say it is not like a guarantee from an appliance store if you buy a faulty toaster. Remember you are buying a living, breathing organism. Even despite the breeder's best intentions, efforts and everything else, a pup may fall down to a genetic problem NO-ONE has ever heard before or come down with something that has a chance of occurring 100:1 and you were that unlucky 100th.

However most ethical breeders will and DO want to know if their progeny comes down with a genetic issue. They/you may not be able to do anything about it, but information is valuable and it may prevent that combination from happening again (Sire/dam) or identify a new issue within a breed.

Ethical breeders do eat, sleep and breath the breed they are involved in. They are continually studying and learning about developments in genetic science, participating in breed clubs and trying to keep their breeds healthy and active and keep new people to the breed honest and as keen as they are about looking after the breed for the betterment and keeping the breed healthy for many years to come.

I also suggest starting locally with your breeders. Do some more research and have a look at their dogs, and get to know the breed from the inside. Some of the best and most valuable information out there is sitting inside a breeder's head and not on the internet or picture breed books. Get to know the Brilliant, good, bad and damn ugly of the breed. Go and have a look at the parent(s) [not everyone keeps the sire at home in preference of using an outside dog] of the litter without the temptation of pups there. Also have a look at the parents/pups, even if the whole litter is sold. Again it limits the temptation to buy a fluffy puppy now and makes you go away and think about that breeder and your decision.

Really examine what YOU want from your pup. What kind of personality do you want? I think this is the most important, before colour and sex. Do you want a boisterous pup or something more sedate? In some breeds/lines boys can be more sedate than girls and vice versa in other breeds/lines. What is the breeder breeding for? IF they are breeding for working ability and you want a sedate pup, are they the right breeder for you? Again in my breed there are some fantastic breeders who breed for performance and have really good dogs.. But the drive and personality of their animals may not suited to a very laid back household as they will not be able to offer the pup the mental stimulation it requires.

IF you breeder has done health testing, I would strongly recommend that you ask to see original relevant paperwork and ask about registrations (Main/Limit) and when do you expect to expect the pedigree papers for your puppy. Do not be alarmed if they are not ready when you pick up your puppy at 8 weeks. Each state has different rules to registering pups. In Qld for example, we can register pups straight into new owners names. so if we are waiting to sell one or two puppies in a litter, we may wait until all pups are sold before sending in the paperwork to our Canine Council. So it could take a couple of weeks before you get your papers. If you have a question whether if they are registered, you can ring the canine council the breeder resides in and ask if they are financial. YOu will not get too much information due to privacy laws, but you should know whether they are financial and if they have sent in the paperwork for the pup you have just bought.

Excellent post Mysticview

[LizT]

On the flip side, some could suggest that registered breeders breed their dogs for shows/competition...and the dogs that dont meet those standards are sold.

I would suggest that dogs that ethical breeders sell because they don't meet the standard as well as others in the litter still meet the standard a hell of a lot more than your byb, puppy farmer, pet shop.

Agree, and sometimes it's not confirmation or health issues that preclude a dog from the Show Ring. Sometimes it just doesn't have that "look at me" attitude that gives a good show dog the edge. Or in a large litter there are only so many 'berths' available in the Show Dog home. It's not always so easy to tell if a pupppy will pan out into the type of Show Dog you're hoping for. Possible the better pup may very well end up in the much loved pet home.

[Stolzseinrotts]

Agree, and sometimes it's not confirmation or health issues that preclude a dog from the Show Ring. Sometimes it just doesn't have that "look at me" attitude that gives a good show dog the edge. Or in a large litter there are only so many 'berths' available in the Show Dog home. It's not always so easy to tell if a pupppy will pan out into the type of Show Dog you're hoping for. Possible the better pup may very well end up in the much loved pet home.

Re:- Bolded part of your statement.

That is so the truth!!!! There are beautiful dogs that conform to their respective standard in backyards all around this country. Many of them worthy of being shown but they have been placed as pets because that is all the owner wanted. Finding suitable show homes is not that easy IMO.

A show dog needs that "look at me" presence to stand out in the ring, many beautiful dogs just don't have that attitude and many also don't like the show ring and don't give their all.

[Mystiqview]

In a breed as common as Labradores (and in my breed of Border Collies), competition is fierce and spots in breed/show homes are hard to come by because there are so many good dogs around. So there are some very good breed examples out there sitting in back yards as pets.

In some cases, I would much rather put a puppy in a pet home where it will be loved no matter what, than in some show homes where if it does not win each time it goes out, they move it on or lock it up in kennel runs.

My dogs here are pets first and competition dogs second. One can easily see that by the dog fur on all the couches..... I have covers for the couches.. and at the moment.. I have white and black couch covers...

[LizT]

Well after all isn't that what breeders are supposed to be striving for..excellence in the Pets and family members they produce. Nothing nicer than seeing a well bred dog going for a walk with his people is there. :D

[Mystiqview]

LizT,

When you consider REALLY about 90% of pedigree breeder puppies end up in a pet home. They MUST be healthy, have GREAT temperaments and be suitable to live socially in the community.

Even the bigger kennels who produce more puppies for their sport.. There are many who do not cut the grade and have to go somewhere.. and that somewhere is.. A loving Family.

[ollie waffle]

Thank you all for your replies.

All were interesting to read.

My aim was to see what advice people would offer prior to a sale.

I have a lab. I purchased him as a gift for my 10yr old daughter who has wanted a lab puppy for 2 years. I bought him from a registered breeder. At 4 months he was diagnosed with short ulna and radius curvus syndrome caused from a form of OCD.

He is also a dwarf dog.

The breeder offered to refund my money if i returned our pup. NO way was this an option. This pup was part of our family. What was the breeder planning to do? Have it put down? wasnt it better this pup stayed with a loving family???

We have spent $11K to fix some health problems related to these genetic issues.

Both owners of the Sire & Dam do not want to know about the issues. Ive been in contacted with relevant dog council however they say they have no authority to stop these people breeding this Sire & Dam that produced such nasty genetic diseases. Thye both need to be de-sexed and so does all the litter mates.

The owner of the Sire referred to our situation as a debacle and told us never to contact her again .....

So please explain to me - how are these registered breeders any better than a back yard breeder?????????????????????????

[ellz]

So please explain to me - how are these registered breeders any better than a back yard breeder?????????????????????????

They may not be, but that doesn't mean that others are the same.

[ollie waffle]

So please explain to me - how are these registered breeders any better than a back yard breeder?????????????????????????

They may not be, but that doesn't mean that others are the same.

no it doesnt and that is when the dog councils and the ankc should step in to take control of the situation.

[ellz]

So please explain to me - how are these registered breeders any better than a back yard breeder?????????????????????????

They may not be, but that doesn't mean that others are the same.

no it doesnt and that is when the dog councils and the ankc should step in to take control of the situation.

But you see under the law, the ANKC and its state controlling bodies have no power. They are ONLY registering bodies. They have no power to do anything except maintain registers of purebred dogs and create and administer rules for dog shows.

[WreckitWhippet]

Thank you all for your replies.

All were interesting to read.

My aim was to see what advice people would offer prior to a sale.

I have a lab. I purchased him as a gift for my 10yr old daughter who has wanted a lab puppy for 2 years. I bought him from a registered breeder. At 4 months he was diagnosed with short ulna and radius curvus syndrome caused from a form of OCD.

He is also a dwarf dog.

The breeder offered to refund my money if i returned our pup. NO way was this an option. This pup was part of our family. What was the breeder planning to do? Have it put down? wasnt it better this pup stayed with a loving family???

We have spent $11K to fix some health problems related to these genetic issues.

Both owners of the Sire & Dam do not want to know about the issues. Ive been in contacted with relevant dog council however they say they have no authority to stop these people breeding this Sire & Dam that produced such nasty genetic diseases. Thye both need to be de-sexed and so does all the litter mates.

The owner of the Sire referred to our situation as a debacle and told us never to contact her again .....

So please explain to me - how are these registered breeders any better than a back yard breeder?????????????????????????

They offered to refund your money, that's what seperates the wheat from the chaff. Try gettin a BYBer to give you any guarantee of make good when it all goes to hell in a hand basket.

Another registered breeder bash and whinge.

[ellz]

And just in addition to what ReadySetGo said....if you contacted the Dept of Fair Trading, they would tell you that the breeder has done the right thing and has no further responsibility to you if you choose to refuse to accept their offer of a refund.

Think about it in other terms (yes I know it is a living breathing animal but in the eyes of the law, a dog is still "goods"). Say you'd bought a chair from Kmart. The chair was faulty. You contacted Kmart and they offered to refund your money. You accept and that is the end of the matter. But you must return the chair first. It isn't an option to keep the chair AND get the refund.

As to what happens to the puppy if returned to the breeder for a refund. That is their business and although you feel you have done the right thing by spending so much to fix your dog, others wouldn't agree. Many would feel it inhumane to continue attempting to fix the problems and would feel more comfortable to euthanase. That is one of the decisions that a breeder has to make.