Chemically Castrated Or Re Home

[Puppoochi]

My boy Elvis keeps picking fights with his son Ziggy, I keep breaking them up.

I watch Caesar Milan, and I am attempting to follow his instructions but the fights still keep happening.

I've been thinking of re homing Elvis as Ziggy is not mine to re home, I gave him to my housemate.

Friday I broke up 2 fights, shortly thereafter a local lady rang wanting an older dog, I told her about Elvis. She is coming by tomorrow to meet Elvis, so I groomed him today, however, while I was grooming him I was in tears. I love him so much, I just don't think I can do it.

My father died last week and I'm somewhat hypersensitive atm.

She sounds like a lovely lady and knowing she is local would mean I would still groom and see him, but still, I don't think I can give him up.

There are 5 dogs here and I'm at my limit with the space that I have here.

I have a Smash daughter that I plan to mate next season, but my housemate doesn't want another dog.

My Smash Daughter will be 2 1/2 next season and it's time for her to have her 1st litter.

My friend who bred her (it took a year of hassling her to use Jackpot) most certainly wants a baby from her, so I have no probs with the pick hitting the ring.

My problem is that although Elvis has produced some nice stuff, I have no plan to use him in the near future, he's turning 7 soon and from a breeder's perspective, he's taking up the space of a new dog.

I wish I wasn't so soft, I love him so much (as I do with all my dogs) I don't think I can give him up. I was thinking that maybe if I had him chemically castrated that he may settle down. Ziggy is 2 and has been chemically castrated for about 6 months now and has never had a mating.

I'm so torn as I can't stand breaking up fights anymore.

Will chemically castrating him settle him down, or will this just continue?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

Edited August 22, 2010 by poodiful1

[Christina]

The fighting probably won't stop. Its the dominant male thing & once it starts unless the other dog completely knuckles under there will be occasional fights & there is no predicting when they will occur. It may be once every few months or every week.

My eldest dog is 8. Bottom of the pack as a baby coming in last but as the older dogs I had then died he got very dominant with others. Not too bad with the bitches & can turn on the charm & be so nice at mating time.

When my last male got old & a bit senile & odd he did pick on him & had a hard time breaking it on command as always previously obeyed. As the oldest dog now he is very bossy.

Solution now is to keep him seperate unless I am in the room.

7 is a hard age to re home a dog. I don't know that I could do it. If you can & he will be happy it may be better for him being the only dog & getting all the attention.

Chemical castration may help but I would not be 100% sure of it. Only way to find out is to try it. If not successful you can re home or rearrange the house arrangement for them to have turns each in time spent with you.

[Puppoochi]

The fighting probably won't stop. Its the dominant male thing & once it starts unless the other dog completely knuckles under there will be occasional fights & there is no predicting when they will occur. It may be once every few months or every week.

My eldest dog is 8. Bottom of the pack as a baby coming in last but as the older dogs I had then died he got very dominant with others. Not too bad with the bitches & can turn on the charm & be so nice at mating time.

When my last male got old & a bit senile & odd he did pick on him & had a hard time breaking it on command as always previously obeyed. As the oldest dog now he is very bossy.

Solution now is to keep him seperate unless I am in the room.

7 is a hard age to re home a dog. I don't know that I could do it. If you can & he will be happy it may be better for him being the only dog & getting all the attention.

Chemical castration may help but I would not be 100% sure of it. Only way to find out is to try it. If not successful you can re home or rearrange the house arrangement for them to have turns each in time spent with you.

I live in a 2 bedroom single fronted VIC terrace and other than confinement, I can't rearrange. Ziggy knows that he is my housemate's dog and not mine, and I'm sure the lady will treat Elvis very well otherwise I wouldn't consider her.

I don't know if I could deal with another loss atm though, I'm very fragile and crying a lot. You should see the bags under my eyes, YUK!!!!

When I gave Marilyn to my friend, it was hard, but I dealt with it, but having just lost my dad, I just don't know how I'll cope without him(Elvis). We've been through tough times together and I love him to death.

I haven't met the lady yet, and I would expect her to be my friend if I gave her my lil man. The funny thing is, she lives about 500mts, if not less from where Marilyn lives now in South Melb.

Ultimately, I don't know how long I will be living with my housemate (Harry). We've been living together for 5 years this week and we get along famously, but we are just mates and nothing lasts forever.

I just really wish that Elvis would just stop being a fighter, then I wouldn't have this dilemma. :p

BTW, he doesn't give the girls a hard time at all.

Edited August 22, 2010 by poodiful1

[shmoo]

Get help from a professional POSITIVE trainer. Using 'Ceaser Milan' techniques will only exacerbate the situation.

Is he well and truly separated from the other dogs? Practice makes perfect when it comes to aggression.

[Nekhbet]

Get help from a professional POSITIVE trainer. Using 'Ceaser Milan' techniques will only exacerbate the situation.

:p not touching that one ...

I think you need professional help with your pack structure in general and to have Elvis assessed. It may even be Ziggy instigating the fights and Elvis simply finishes them! Sometimes we're quick to assume one dog is the problem. PLus who knows if he is truely dog aggressive or just incompatible with ziggy in the current situation.

Dont make a decision yet until you have had your home situation checked by a professional, and dont make any rash decisions until you're ready to deal with them

[persephone]

Agree with nekhbet on this advice...

I think you need professional help with your pack structure in general and to have Elvis assessed. It may even be Ziggy instigating the fights and Elvis simply finishes them! Sometimes we're quick to assume one dog is the problem.

Dont make a decision yet until you have had your home situation checked by a professional, and dont make any rash decisions until you're ready to deal with them

Cesar Millan's techniques are meant to be used after consulting a professional, I think.... they are certainly not a 'one size fits all' easy fix solution.

[jacqui835]

Agree with nekhbet on this advice...

I think you need professional help with your pack structure in general and to have Elvis assessed. It may even be Ziggy instigating the fights and Elvis simply finishes them! Sometimes we're quick to assume one dog is the problem.

Dont make a decision yet until you have had your home situation checked by a professional, and dont make any rash decisions until you're ready to deal with them

Cesar Millan's techniques are meant to be used after consulting a professional, I think.... they are certainly not a 'one size fits all' easy fix solution.

And they only have a chance of working if you are able to read all the signs, understand exactly what is going on and know who instigates what. You also need to be completely calm when you're doing it, and I find this the hardest aspect to achieve because if my dog is ever in any kind of fight I'm the polar opposite of calm. It is much easier when the dogs aren't yours - ie get a professional to come in and start the process - then once you've seen it and you can calm down a bit, you can continue it.

[Nekhbet]

no technique will be effective if implemented incorrectly. No matter what it is. Limited interaction when you're feeling up to handling it or one in a crate/pen and the other out then swap. You have the luxury of smaller dogs so at least juggling and control can be slightly easier!

[Sandra777]

Sorry for the loss of your father.

It sounds to me like you are almost ready to let Elvis go but this is just a really bad time in your life to let anything else go, which is perfectly understandable.

Can you meet this woman and if she is what you want for Elvis, explain to her about your recent loss and that right at this point in time you can't let Elvis go but that you want her to have him when you are feeling more in control.

I think most people would understand how you feel and assuming she doesn't have a hoard of children clamouring for a dog NOW I think most people would be prepared to wait a while.

Perhaps in a couple of days (or more) you could call her and see if you can take Elvis to her place for a visit, then a bit after that let her take him for the day - let go slowly in other words.

Rehoming the "older" ones is so much harder but sometimes it is better for the dog. I understand completely what you mean by he's 'taking the room' of a younger dog even though you love him dearly - it's a terrible position to be in but you have to be realistic sometimes. There's always the special ones you can't part with, and always the ones you love but can see living elsewhere just as happily.

[OSoSwift]

Sorry for the loss of your dad. It would be very hard to make such a decision under those circumstances.

I second getting someone else in to look at the situtaion for a non-emotional point of view.

The other thing that you need to consider is, it will be quite stressful for Elvis to be living in a situation where he feels he needs to be on guard all the time and that a fight is quite litereally just around the corner.

At his age the chemical casteration may help, but many behaviours have become habit and not a new behaviour. Also he is fighting with an essentially desexed dog. This would suggest to me that the fights are more than just an excess of hormones.

The more often he fights the better he gets at it, the fighting will escalate and it could we become extremely serious and life or limb threatening.

It is such a hard time for you and you have many things to take into consideration.

[mirawee]

I have recently gone through this with two of my dogs and it is never easy. Although for us I know that the boy we have chosen to rehome will be so much better off with his new family as he will get a lot more time and attention than he did here. And I can safely say not having the stress of keeping an eye out for fights, or keeping dogs seperate, is also a massive relief.

Another option is to have the person come and meet him and discuss things with them. Tell them up front you are not yet decided. We also insisted on a trial before a final deciison was made.

[shmoo]

Get help from a professional POSITIVE trainer. Using 'Ceaser Milan' techniques will only exacerbate the situation.

not touching that one ...

Jebuz. I've really stepped on your toes somehow.

I promote positive training first.

[Erny]

Get help from a professional POSITIVE trainer. Using 'Ceaser Milan' techniques will only exacerbate the situation.

not touching that one ...

Jebuz. I've really stepped on your toes somehow.

I promote positive training first.

So does CM, if "positive" is what will work and be the best all round for everyone.

I promote "positive" first too. Yet I'm a 'balanced' trainer in that I will use corrections where I think corrections will help all concerned the best. I think it is not so much that you're "standing on toes" (Nekhbet's response wasn't that dramatic anyway) rather that the way you've written is to suggest that anyone who is not "positive" (as in "only", which is what it implied to me) isn't good or the best. Also, you assume you know what, of the techniques CM knows, what he would use for these two dogs. So from that aspect you can't know that the "situation will be exacerbated". Personally, I'd rather a trainer who knows a good mix of both but who relies on neither.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Erny

[shmoo]

If he does, then I have been watching the wrong show.

[Erny]

If he does, then I have been watching the wrong show.

I'd say you probably have - or only remember/emphasise in your mind the most extremes of the examples that were shown.

[shmoo]

If he does, then I have been watching the wrong show.

I'd say you probably have - or only remember/emphasise in your mind the most extremes of the examples that were shown.

Can you recommend a season/episode to watch please? I am always interested in different types/ways/methods of training.

[Erny]

If he does, then I have been watching the wrong show.

I'd say you probably have - or only remember/emphasise in your mind the most extremes of the examples that were shown.

Can you recommend a season/episode to watch please? I am always interested in different types/ways/methods of training.

Watch them broadly. I've watched only a few (I don't have pay TV). I've seen the "alpha roll" technique in some and they were pretty mild/tame. I've seen some extreme behaviour (behaviour that I don't think I would like to have to deal with) and some really good outcomes for the dog. I didn't make a note of what episode number or season. Maybe you could email him and let him know you've only seen techniques from him that serve to "exacerbate" the dog's undesirable behaviours - he'd (or someone on his management team) be the best person to point you to episode numbers to watch . I've read his books - much is about leadership (good ) and I've been to his seminar/show when he was in Australia, and much of that was positive stuff.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Erny

[Nekhbet]

because shmoo you're insisting on poo pooing everything and giving advice to people about dificult situations when you have little experience with it. You should be saying 'find a trainer that has experience with aggression and situations like this' not simply 'oh a positive one' - most have little to no idea about how to solve the problem or put a dog back in its rightful place.

I think poodiful has probably tried pack modification techniques CM advocates, the alpha roll is actually used quite rarely and only by him if you notice. Leaving things like the DD collars, corrections etc up to a professional are recommended by the show anyway.

[Erny]

... the alpha roll is actually used quite rarely and only by him if you notice. Leaving things like the DD collars, corrections etc up to a professional are recommended by the show anyway.

Yes.

[Erny]

And Poodiful - My condolences for the loss of your Dad. It would be a pretty tough time for you emotionally speaking and the situation between your dogs wouldn't be helped by them picking up on your emotional turmoil at the moment. Leadership and management strategies are needed for the 'now' and I'd suggest engaging a behaviourist even just to be able to share opinion, will help you make the decision you are so torn about, and to perhaps think with a bit more objectivity and clarity.