Experiences With Pet Resorts Terrigal & Trainer Steve Austin

[bedazzledx2]

Please please do not equate all positive trainers with Delta!!! If their standards are low that is their problem but there are many of us who are positive trainers who aspire to excellence and can achieve it using positive methods!!!!

exactly what lovemesideways has said :D. Delta insists on saying their methods are the best, yet NO dog at the pinnacle of training is trained by one of their members with their methods alone ... why? Because they do not have the skills or the tools or the broad mind it takes to do that. And actually corvus, people in society DO need reliable dogs. Especially those who chose to keep large breeds, entire males that may have attitudes etc you want reliability and safety from your dog.

Yes I know Steve is PIAA, that gets my goat too. Bad. But at the same time the man is a damn good dog trainer who knows how to motivate an animal and get it working happily. If he can make a chicken play the piano he can do anything

[Aidan]

Shmoo you seem to be a little confused on what training is about. As for positive training its basis is on negative punishment (removal of good things and pack punishments) unless you truely sit there and continuously shove rewards at your dog all the time.

I don't sit there shoving rewards at my dogs all the time, yet they continue to emit responses. What is being punished when I don't reward them? And what am I taking away?

[Staranais]

Everyone here only has to train pet dogs.

Actually, many members of this forum (including myself) also train working dogs of various types. Just letting you know.

Steven Lindsay at the NDTF conference shared what it took to train a military dog with positive methods only, and it wasn't very nice. He didn't really offer an alternative, though. Just kinda vaguely said that positive methods aren't always very good for dogs.

I'm interested in this, can you share more? Are you talking about extreme levels of deprivation?

Most SAR tracking & scenting dogs that I have worked with & seen trained are taught their jobs almost entirely positively, since a dog without a huge drive to earn the reward is simply not worth the time to train it (the same is not always true of how these dogs are taught basic manners, how they are kiwi proofed, or stock proofed, of course, aversives are used here). Some of these dogs are deprived during certain stages of training (only get toys on the track, for example), but I have never seen this taken to an unkind or unfair level of deprivation. If you had to do so, I'd question whether the dog had the goods to do the job.

[Quickasyoucan]

I have attended Steve Austin's one day Dangerous Dogs TAFE course. He was an interesting and entertaining presenter.

We got to take a bite both from Chilli (his wife's border collie) and one of Steve's working dogs in progress (a Malinois). Went home high on adrenaline but with a few bruises . I also heard him speak on scent detection at the NDTF conference.

I have a friend who has attended his wife's puppy classes and says that they are very good, much better than previous classes at vets my friend has attended.

So I think there is a large degree of knowledge there and, as others have said, he is distinguished in his training of dogs for scent work.

I too don't agree with the PIAA stance but that is his personal choice at the end of the day doesn't automatically make him a bad dog trainer.

Not a fan of boarding training but I believe the program at Pet Resorts includes a training session for owner and dog at the end of the stay.

[Jeff Jones]

I'd like to see a police dog trainer get a reliable heel out of a Basenji.

Yes that seems like the ultimate challenge. I have seen a Basenji trained by a police dog handler to indicate on TNT - Primer Cord - C-4 - Ammonium Nitrate- Black and smokeless powders and different form of water gels but I did not notice whether this dog had the level of training to perform a nice heel.

[corvus]

Everyone here only has to train pet dogs.

Steven Lindsay at the NDTF conference shared what it took to train a military dog with positive methods only, and it wasn't very nice. He didn't really offer an alternative, though. Just kinda vaguely said that positive methods aren't always very good for dogs.

I'm interested in this, can you share more? Are you talking about extreme levels of deprivation?

Yes, extreme levels of food deprivation. Knock the dog's weight back by 80% and they work for every morsel. If their performance is not up to scratch they get nothing to eat. One of the problems I understand are faced by trainers of any dog that works pretty much all the time is keeping them motivated. Lindsay was talking about dogs that were expected to work some 800m from their handlers for hours and hours as scouts.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Just saw this thread...

Steve Austin is an exceptional trainer and a nice guy... I dont know much about the B&T facility but if he is attached you can bet its ok. I am not a huge fan of Board and Training as I focus on training people to train their dogs, but it does have a place in training.

Those who say that most people dont need the reliability of a service dog are right, but if you train with a trainer who can train dogs to that level, you at least know that you are working with someone that can exceed your requirements/needs.

Not all dogs can succeed in working dog programs as they dont have the drive and or nerves, but we sure can train the dog to its genetic capability...

The Bio Sensor (Super Dog) program that Steve Lindsay spoke about his envolvement in was many years ago... And I think you might find it was drop the dogs weight TO 80% of original, not drop 80% of the dogs weight off....

[corvus]

I'd like to see a police dog trainer get a reliable heel out of a Basenji.

Yes that seems like the ultimate challenge. I have seen a Basenji trained by a police dog handler to indicate on TNT - Primer Cord - C-4 - Ammonium Nitrate- Black and smokeless powders and different form of water gels but I did not notice whether this dog had the level of training to perform a nice heel.

That would be cool to see. It is a hound with a good nose on it, so it's kind of beside the point, though, isn't it?

[casowner]

I also agree that Steve is a great guy, I told him last year that I was disheartened with the Pet Industry and was considering leaving it for good and he automatically offered to fly down to SA to conduct a training session if I organised it. It was really nice knowing that there are people still out there that will give their own time to encourage others. I didn't have the time to follow through with it but I am still here as he made me feel that my contribution was worthwhile so I appreciate that

[huski]

I'd like to see a police dog trainer get a reliable heel out of a Basenji.

Yes that seems like the ultimate challenge. I have seen a Basenji trained by a police dog handler to indicate on TNT - Primer Cord - C-4 - Ammonium Nitrate- Black and smokeless powders and different form of water gels but I did not notice whether this dog had the level of training to perform a nice heel.

That would be cool to see. It is a hound with a good nose on it, so it's kind of beside the point, though, isn't it?

My trainer is a qualified law enforcement dog trainer and got a reliable heel from my beagle, I don't think a Basenji would be much more of a challenge.

Edited August 24, 2010 by huski

[corvus]

The Bio Sensor (Super Dog) program that Steve Lindsay spoke about his envolvement in was many years ago... And I think you might find it was drop the dogs weight TO 80% of original, not drop 80% of the dogs weight off....

Hope your right, 'cause I was pretty freaking horrified by that!

[Kavik]

I'd like to see a police dog trainer get a reliable heel out of a Basenji.

Yes that seems like the ultimate challenge. I have seen a Basenji trained by a police dog handler to indicate on TNT - Primer Cord - C-4 - Ammonium Nitrate- Black and smokeless powders and different form of water gels but I did not notice whether this dog had the level of training to perform a nice heel.

That would be cool to see. ;) It is a hound with a good nose on it, so it's kind of beside the point, though, isn't it?

I think that sounds very impressive

corvus - scent detection isn't all about the nose, it is about the motivation. Most dogs of all breeds have a good enough nose to do scent work, not all have the right drive/nerves/motivation etc.

In the scent detection course I did (where Steve Austin was one of the main speakers) I was told that Beagles are not chosen for scent work in airports because of their scenting ability alone, but because of their non-threatening and friendly image and size.

[Aidan]

The Bio Sensor (Super Dog) program that Steve Lindsay spoke about his envolvement in was many years ago... And I think you might find it was drop the dogs weight TO 80% of original, not drop 80% of the dogs weight off....

Hope your right, 'cause I was pretty freaking horrified by that!

It's a fairly standard laboratory procedure, not universally recognised as necessary these days though.

[Steve K9Pro]

The Bio Sensor (Super Dog) program that Steve Lindsay spoke about his envolvement in was many years ago... And I think you might find it was drop the dogs weight TO 80% of original, not drop 80% of the dogs weight off....

Hope your right, 'cause I was pretty freaking horrified by that!

K9: I am not sure a dog would survive dropping 80% of its weight, or the humans around could stand to A. watch it, B. do it and C. put up with the noise.

I know that it is common that adults dogs being adapted into working dog programs often drop weight, this is mostly due to the increased work load these days.

Also more prey motivation is used these days so need for so much focus on food reduction.

[aussielover]

The Bio Sensor (Super Dog) program that Steve Lindsay spoke about his envolvement in was many years ago... And I think you might find it was drop the dogs weight TO 80% of original, not drop 80% of the dogs weight off....

Hope your right, 'cause I was pretty freaking horrified by that!

wouldn't the dog have died if it was 80% of the body weight? unless it was hugely obese to start with, even then there are liver complications that occur...

[lovemesideways]

Why should those dogs be the standard we all look to? Not many folks need a dog that damn reliable, and I don't know anyone who needs a dog that can do even half of what a working dog needs to do.

Why shouldn't they be the standard? I see the standard as the best, and as far as level of training and control goes, they're the best.

Well, it depends on what you mean by "the best". The methods used to train military, police and detection dogs are geared towards a particular type of dog. You cannot take an ordinary everyday pet dog and train them the way that police dogs are trained and just expect that to produce a dog that is as reliable as a police dog. And by "reliable" we are talking about carrying out their training when someone is trying to beat the crap out of them. Would you put your dogs through that? I wouldn't. It'd break them. It's precisely the reason why they spend so much money trying to figure out how to select dogs that will actually make it through the training. Most don't. I think it's ridiculous to look to a standard that is designed and suited to a kind of dog that most pet owners don't actually own and never will. They are not the "best". They are just the ones that can do it.

I mean the best as the highest level of control a dog can be under. I'm not saying that every dog should be trained as a military working, but to the highest level of that dogs potential. There is nothing wrong with wanting your dog to be amazing.

I think of a Reliable dog as one that you are sure will listen to go in any imaginable situation. For the police or military dogs, they need to be able to hold a bite even whilst someone is frantically hitting them and trying to get them off.

And as far as being able to train while someone is "beating the crap out of you". Well for example, both of my Labs have fairly high tolerance that I've worked on since they where babies. I played a game with Rover thats built up to the point where I will kick him or smack him on the sides, HARD, during tug, and he thinks its fantastic. All part of one of his favorite games. My dad will scruff them and throw them to the ground in play, and they spring back up, tails wagging and loving it. They certainly aren't up to the level of military dogs, but the level of tolerance is high. Certainly didn't break them.

Its not like they start out with a puppy, full on walloping them with a stick whilst getting them to sit. The level is built up over time.

Saying that people don't need something of that standard is like saying, Why should regular people look at champion show or workings dogs as the example for their chosen breed? They're just pets, any mutt will do because its not like its going to be shown, its just a pet.

No it's not like that at all. There's a difference between looking at the pinnacle and admiring it and trying to get there. Getting there takes more than just the right training. You have to have the raw ability to get there first.

Again, I'm not saying every dog should be a trained police dog. But I don't see anything wrong with wanting to work towards your dogs full potential, and yours.

Why shouldn't you aspire to have the highest possible level you can?

Because your dog isn't suited to it! It is cruel to put an animal through training that is inherently stressful if they cannot cope with it, doubly so if it isn't even necessary.

So training a dog to their highest level of potential is cruel? Wow who knew...

So I guess I shouldn't be looking at working on agility with Rover, because I know he is not uncomfortable with unstable surface, and getting him comfortable with them is going to be somewhat stressful on his part. Or I shouldn't have worked so much with Riddick getting him used to and happy to greet people. Because it sure as hell was stressful for him having to be in those situations where there where people around.

The level of training you start at is supposed to be low. I certainly didn't start by taking Riddick into huge crowds of people.

I'm pretty sure a lot of folks would be very happy if their dogs where "that damn reliable". I would certainly be happy if everyone's dogs where that "damn reliable".

I wouldn't be, because I have some vague idea of what goes into making them like that.

Yeah because obviously they're evil fiends who beat dogs to make them comply. Or maybe they just know how to use both correction and rewards effectively.

I would be much happier if every dog was reliable and under effective control.

I think the comment was based on the fact that the PP Delta trainers level of training is low when compared to the amazing training done by high level police or military dog trainers. So tramping about saying that "Check chains are cruel!" and "Purely Positive training should be the only training used!" is all well and good.. but then how the hell are we going to train the police, military, goverment dogs of the world? Could you train one with only positive methods, or know someone who could?

See, this is what I don't get. So what if Delta trainers can't train military dogs? No one is asking them to. They only have to train pet dogs. Whether they do that well or not or even positively or not is up for debate, but beside the point. Everyone here only has to train pet dogs. The percentage of dogs in the world that can even DO military or police work in the first place is tiny. The percentage of breeds suited to it is tiny and the percentage of individuals within the breeds that can do it is tiny. So it seems like a ridiculous standard to apply to the whole of dogdom to me, and I often wonder why dog trainers are so obsessed with police and military dogs. I'd like to see a police dog trainer get a reliable heel out of a Basenji.

Steven Lindsay at the NDTF conference shared what it took to train a military dog with positive methods only, and it wasn't very nice. He didn't really offer an alternative, though. Just kinda vaguely said that positive methods aren't always very good for dogs.

The point is, they aren't just saying "Only PP methods should be used when training general pet dogs", they say "Only PP, Ever." I doubt that everyone here is only training pet dogs.

Well I've seen a Husky who was previously very DA, performing a fabulous heel. I'm confident the same could be done with a Basenji.

[Staranais]

The Bio Sensor (Super Dog) program that Steve Lindsay spoke about his envolvement in was many years ago... And I think you might find it was drop the dogs weight TO 80% of original, not drop 80% of the dogs weight off....

Hope your right, 'cause I was pretty freaking horrified by that!

wouldn't the dog have died if it was 80% of the body weight? unless it was hugely obese to start with, even then there are liver complications that occur...

LOL, yes it would. But perhaps Corvus meant reducing their body weight to 80% of the original (i.e., losing 20%)? I see a lot of dogs in our clinic that could stand to lose 20% of their body weight.

[corvus]

I mean the best as the highest level of control a dog can be under. I'm not saying that every dog should be trained as a military working, but to the highest level of that dogs potential.

The highest possible level of control doesn't always come cheaply, though. That's what I'm saying. There is more to it than the result.

And as far as being able to train while someone is "beating the crap out of you". Well for example, both of my Labs have fairly high tolerance that I've worked on since they where babies. I played a game with Rover thats built up to the point where I will kick him or smack him on the sides, HARD, during tug, and he thinks its fantastic. All part of one of his favorite games. My dad will scruff them and throw them to the ground in play, and they spring back up, tails wagging and loving it. They certainly aren't up to the level of military dogs, but the level of tolerance is high. Certainly didn't break them.

Its not like they start out with a puppy, full on walloping them with a stick whilst getting them to sit. The level is built up over time.

I didn't say they did. And I made no comment whatsoever on what may or may not be aversive to different dogs under different conditions after different experiences. I commented only on what I believe my dogs would find very aversive. I highly doubt I could ever build my dogs up to the point where they will keep doing something I have taught them to do while someone is being violent towards them. Heck, not every potential police dog in training can be.

Again, I'm not saying every dog should be a trained police dog. But I don't see anything wrong with wanting to work towards your dogs full potential, and yours.

There's nothing wrong with it, as long as you are realistic about what is fair to your dog. But I wasn't arguing about that. I was arguing that police dog training methods should not be held up as the golden standard we all strive for because they are not suited to very many dogs in the first place.

So training a dog to their highest level of potential is cruel? Wow who knew...

So I guess I shouldn't be looking at working on agility with Rover, because I know he is not uncomfortable with unstable surface, and getting him comfortable with them is going to be somewhat stressful on his part. Or I shouldn't have worked so much with Riddick getting him used to and happy to greet people. Because it sure as hell was stressful for him having to be in those situations where there where people around.

The level of training you start at is supposed to be low. I certainly didn't start by taking Riddick into huge crowds of people.

You know, I find that quite insulting to my and your intelligence. It's argument for the sake of argument, don't you think? Once again:

It is cruel to put an animal through training that is inherently stressful if they cannot cope with it, doubly so if it isn't even necessary.

Stressing an animal a small amount tends to help them more than hinder them, from what I have read and experienced. I certainly take opportunities that present themselves to push my dogs a teensy bit out of their comfort zone. I believe it boosts their confidence and helps them develop problem-solving skills. Every time they are stressed and cope with it quickly they are a little more relaxed about a stressful situation the next time. They get a dopamine hit from it, I believe.

I wouldn't be, because I have some vague idea of what goes into making them like that.

Yeah because obviously they're evil fiends who beat dogs to make them comply. Or maybe they just know how to use both correction and rewards effectively.

I would be much happier if every dog was reliable and under effective control.

Police dog training methods are not suited to very many dogs. Not because it is physical or correction-based (which it's not afaik) but because we are talking about big, drivey, aggressive dogs that may not even notice if you check them on a check chain half the time. I don't have one of those, so I don't think those training methods are right for me. It has nothing at all to do with having an ordinary pet dog reliable and under effective control. You don't need corrections for that. I know plenty of people that have achieved it without any corrections. Many of them are on this forum.

I'm confident the same could be done with a Basenji.

With police dog training methods?? Because that's the only thing that's relevant to the discussion at hand. It's not a challenge I've issued, it's a "I would genuinely like to see it", because I don't really think that those training methods are suited to... well, a lot of dogs. Basenjis are just the stock standard difficult dog.

[Staranais]

Perhaps it depends what police dog training methods actually are? I only have knowledge of how the cops here train their dogs for scent work. I have no idea how they train their dogs for obedience. Perhaps "police methods" even varies with the police department, and with the individual dog?

Does anyone know for sure that police methods are harsh/would crush a normal dog, or are we all just assuming that this is the case?

[corvus]

corvus - scent detection isn't all about the nose, it is about the motivation. Most dogs of all breeds have a good enough nose to do scent work, not all have the right drive/nerves/motivation etc.

But that was my point, really. Although I didn't want to get side-tracked and embroiled in an argument about detection dogs so I didn't really make it very clearly. I know someone who competes in agility with Basenjis. They tell me with the right Basenji it's doable. After all, they are fast and agile and physically able to do it and fast physical activity is usually fun for a dog. It's just a matter of finding an extremely motivated Basenji. And doing loads of work. And always being prepared to have your dog abruptly decide they are not performing today, thanks. And that's the crux of it. Are police dog training methods going to make that dog ALWAYS perform in the agility ring where lots of positive reinforcement didn't? If so, I would like to see it. It would be an eye opener, I'm sure.