Experiences With Pet Resorts Terrigal & Trainer Steve Austin

[corvus]

Does anyone know for sure that police methods are harsh/would crush a normal dog, or are we all just assuming that this is the case?

I know that sooner or later a police dog generally needs to be triggered into defence or fight drive, they call it. That dog needs to fight for real or else how can we expect it to hold someone who is trying desperately to get away? I do not think the methods are particularly harsh or cruel for those dogs, because they are the kind of dogs that will handle it or else they wouldn't have been trained as police dogs. I think it would be harsh and cruel for my dogs, though, regardless of how much "building up" they may get previously.

[raineth]

Perhaps it depends what police dog training methods actually are? I only have knowledge of how the cops here train their dogs for scent work. I have no idea how they train their dogs for obedience. Perhaps "police methods" even varies with the police department, and with the individual dog?

Does anyone know for sure that police methods are harsh/would crush a normal dog, or are we all just assuming that this is the case?

no, i don't think that is what Corvus was saying...

Corvus (and I hope corvus will correct if I am wrong) was saying that different dogs are suited to different styles of training.

For instance you probably would not do so well training a dog in play/prey drive if it did not have any play/prey drive.

(for instance, if you throw a ball at my Digby he ducks - I wouldn't get very far if I expected I could reward him with a toss of the ball.)

[Steve K9Pro]

C: Police dog training methods are not suited to very many dogs. Not because it is physical or correction-based (which it's not afaik) but because we are talking about big, drivey, aggressive dogs that may not even notice if you check them on a check chain half the time.

K9: Some peoples pets are big - drivey and aggressive too

C: I know someone who competes in agility with Basenjis. They tell me with the right Basenji it's doable.

K9: I know someone who competes in Obedience with a Beagle, not even sure its the right Beagle, but they are going great anyway...

I cant believe people still categorise dogs by breed when drives and nerves are not consistent through breeds. Far from all German Shepherds are suitable for Police style training... when I assess a dog for a task, its breed has little to do with it.

I think that when you talk about Police dog methods, you need to specify Police dog methiods of what time? As I mentioned the comments that were made by Steve Lindsay were quite a long time ago, like all dog training methods have come along, so have the methods used to train dogs in the services.

Motivational Training is the primary method that all the departments I have worked with in the last 5 years are using, when they ask me to put together workshops, Training in drive is always on their list of must haves. They havent been against corrections, they just know what works the best and use it in a balanced system to achieve the best results.

[Nekhbet]

ok this whole thing has gotten confused totally because people have boundaries on their perception of what dog training is about.

It doesnt matter what animal you train for what purpose. A good trainer is one that can

- understand the drives of that particular dog

- tailor a system that works for that dogs temperament and behaviour

- implement it in a consistant and fair manner so the dogs learning and performance is maximised

Point is here not what specific methods a police dog trainer uses. Even what is suitable between K9s there will be differences because every dog is an individual. The point is someone who can train a dog to that level of performance, who can read dogs that well is someone that would be able to read and train your dogs better then someone with a lower level of training experience.

I hope that is clearer.

I cant believe people still categorise dogs by breed when drives and nerves are not consistent through breeds. Far from all German Shepherds are suitable for Police style training... when I assess a dog for a task, its breed has little to do with it.

exactly.

Motivational Training is the primary method that all the departments I have worked with in the last 5 years are using, when they ask me to put together workshops, Training in drive is always on their list of must haves. They havent been against corrections, they just know what works the best and use it in a balanced system to achieve the best results.

again - exactly. All training no matter what HAS to have an elemet of motivation or the dog just WONT DO IT. You cannot simply force a dog to behave in a certain way and to do it happily if there is no element of reward for the animal.

[Vickie]

I know that sooner or later a police dog generally needs to be triggered into defence or fight drive, they call it. That dog needs to fight for real or else how can we expect it to hold someone who is trying desperately to get away? I do not think the methods are particularly harsh or cruel for those dogs, because they are the kind of dogs that will handle it or else they wouldn't have been trained as police dogs. I think it would be harsh and cruel for my dogs, though, regardless of how much "building up" they may get previously.

I think that if ever work with a dog with real instincts, your opinions will change a bit Corvus. For many dogs, it's not a matter of "handling" non purely positive training...they thrive on it! and in lots of cases there is no other way to communicate with them once they enjoy the activity for the sake of the activity. They thrive on consequences b/c consequences are black & white. They become confident quickly, not b/c they are placed under stress, but b/c they understand the rules and end up getting rewarded a lot more often.

Compare the person who is trying to be PP but who lacks experience & doesn't realise they are constantly applying pressure to their dog & shutting them down a little each time they train

vs

the person who plays hard & well but removes the dog from training if it chooses no to obey a command it knows.

Which method is suited to the most dogs? Which is the most positive?

[corvus]

Point is here not what specific methods a police dog trainer uses. Even what is suitable between K9s there will be differences because every dog is an individual. The point is someone who can train a dog to that level of performance, who can read dogs that well is someone that would be able to read and train your dogs better then someone with a lower level of training experience.

Okay, just a passing comment here, not an argument...

Personally, I find the animals I work with influence the way I work with all animals. I crossed over from correction-based methods in the first place because I started working on wild birds and just naturally found that all the things that were being drilled into me about considering the consequences my activities had on the birds started to bleed into my interactions with my pets at home as well. I found it impossible to hold one set of standards for birds and another for dogs. It just didn't work for me. I would be more comfortable with a trainer that had trained a broad range of dogs rather than one that had trained a particular kind of dog to a particularly high level. Yes, all K9s are different and require flexibility in the approach, but they are still a particular type of dog, that being very strongly driven, very motivated, very bold, a little aggressive, fast bounceback and all the rest of the myriad things that go into a good working dog. I know that if it were me, heavy experience in that kind of dog would colour the way I dealt with most animals I worked with. To me, I think regardless of how good a police dog trainer may be at training police dogs, this doesn't automatically make them good at training all dogs. Training all sorts of dogs is what makes them good at training all dogs.

My only issue with police dog training is that pressure they have to put on them in proofing. From the conversations I've had I think that is the only area in which it really strays far from positive, motivational training in the first place, so that's what I thought people were talking about. Some dogs get corrected, but to those dogs it's more an interruption than a correction. Some of them just need swift action before they get themselves really riled. One of my dogs needs that sometimes, and I use a positive interruptor because it works just as well for him. He's not a GSD.

[huski]

Police dog training methods are not suited to very many dogs. Not because it is physical or correction-based (which it's not afaik) but because we are talking about big, drivey, aggressive dogs that may not even notice if you check them on a check chain half the time. I don't have one of those, so I don't think those training methods are right for me. It has nothing at all to do with having an ordinary pet dog reliable and under effective control. You don't need corrections for that. I know plenty of people that have achieved it without any corrections. Many of them are on this forum.

But what are "police dog training methods" and how do you think a police dog trainer would train a Basenji to do reliable heel work with them? Do you think that all police dog trainers use the same methods on all dogs regardless of the dogs nerves/drive/temperament and regardless of what they are training the dog to do?

In case you missed it:

My trainer is a qualified law enforcement dog trainer and got a reliable heel from my beagle, I don't think a Basenji would be much more of a challenge.

I've never trained a police dog (duh) but I'm quite sure the way we trained Daisy to heel was different to the way a police dog would be trained in that you are working within the individual dog's temperament/drives/nerves and that differs from dog to dog. And the obvious difference that training a police dog and training a dog to do competition heelwork are two very different things. The point is not what the trainer does or the kind of dogs they train but whether they are capable of working to produce results within the temperament, drive and nerves of each dog.

Edited August 24, 2010 by huski

[Steve K9Pro]

C: Personally, I find the animals I work with influence the way I work with all animals. I crossed over from correction-based methods in the first place because I started working on wild birds and just naturally found that all the things that were being drilled into me about considering the consequences my activities had on the birds started to bleed into my interactions with my pets at home as well. I found it impossible to hold one set of standards for birds and another for dogs.

K9: I am honestly not having a shot at you here but this will change or at least need to if your to remain in the field. Animals and their treatments and therapies will vary to a great degree and I find I must too or I will let them down.

(huski @ 24th Aug 2010 - 12:26 PM) My trainer is a qualified law enforcement dog trainer and got a reliable heel from my beagle, I don't think a Basenji would be much more of a challenge.

K9: I am sure he would agree, I am also sure he is very proud of the work you have done...

*************************************

In the end the trainers need to be open minded and effective, regardless of whether they are training Police Service Dogs or family pets, when I work with dogs sometimes I use prong collars, some times I use e collars, some times I use drive, some times I use marker training, sometimes I use a clicker, there are many variables that help me make the decision on which way will work best for the dog and the owner, it doesnt really matter what I am training as it is more about the dog and the owners goals.

Even if it is a Beagle, Finnish Lapphund or Basenji...

Edited August 24, 2010 by K9Pro

[lovemesideways]

Anyone in Sydney interested in meeting Steve Austin should come down to the Dog's Big Day Out. This Sunday, in Frenchs Forest.

http://www.warringah.nsw.gov.au/services/d...ig_day_out.aspx

[aussielover]

He is also doing a demo at sydney uni's pet fair!

Sydney uni pet fair

[Quickasyoucan]

Off the topic of Steve Austin but on the topic of working dogs, having just undertaken the marathon flights back and forth to the UK I was lucky enough to see working dogs both at Heathrow and at Sydney.

The Heathrow ones were interesting as they are off lead (working line springers or cockers) the handlers were just strolling through the airport, not sure whether they were actually actively working but they were sure sniffing every bin, plant pot etc in sight, without commands from the handlers and didn't seem to be working for a toy or anything obvious.

Sydney I saw the beagles (I had heard too about them being chosen not only for scenting ability but also social "acceptability) and had a close encounter with a lab (do they target the crotch on purpose ).

Someone commented on working dogs being lean, I actually thought it was great to see a really honed lab, he seemed to be working for praise alone as there was definitely no prey item given.

I love seeing dogs with jobs

[Quickasyoucan]

K9: Some peoples pets are big - drivey and aggressive too

I cant believe people still categorise dogs by breed when drives and nerves are not consistent through breeds. Far from all German Shepherds are suitable for Police style training... when I assess a dog for a task, its breed has little to do with it.

Agree with both these comments.

I like the fact that my dog has drive, I wouldn't consider getting a dog that didn't have some level of drive and I only want a dog as a pet, and I believe I can fulfill his drive related needs.

Dad's dog is a lovely pet dog, a springer spaniel (a breed widely used in scent detection) but I struggle to find any discernable level of drive in him. Obviously that is partly to do with my inexperience, but here is a bird dog who doesn't even really find birds interesting, with only a passing interest in toys and no interest in food. He is a lovely dog, but he has no pizzazz

I think a scent dog trainer would have a much better chance training my medium drive stafford cross as a reliable scent detection dog than Dad's dog who is a breed known for scent detection abilities.

[Nekhbet]

sniffer dogs will be working for something, just the reward comes after the detection. Rewards dont have to be shown to the dog all the time, they become conditioned to receive reward when the job is done. Eg a sniffer dog handler will have a toy in their pocket and when the dog responds to a scent the toy is thrown in front of the dog to make it look like it comes from the scent article

[Quickasyoucan]

sniffer dogs will be working for something, just the reward comes after the detection. Rewards dont have to be shown to the dog all the time, they become conditioned to receive reward when the job is done. Eg a sniffer dog handler will have a toy in their pocket and when the dog responds to a scent the toy is thrown in front of the dog to make it look like it comes from the scent article

What if they don't find anything though? How long can you sustain the momentum?

[Aidan]

What if they don't find anything though? How long can you sustain the momentum?

A very long time if you build resistance to extinction.

[Quickasyoucan]

What if they don't find anything though? How long can you sustain the momentum?

A very long time if you build resistance to extinction.

Thanks, I think I must be jetlagged, I do know they don't get a reward unless they find something, so I am not sure why I wondered where the reward was as they were still searching. I am definitely blaming my jetlag over my stupidity!!

Do they ever give them a win, if there has been no find for some time, ie set up a find?

Scent detection fascinates me but I know very little about it bar what I have seen on TV (and we all know how accurate TV can be at times )

[huski]

Quickasyoucan I don't know anything about scent detection either (I would love to learn more one day!) but when I think about my scent hound I know the act of scenting alone is highly rewarding. She could scent all day with no reward other than the drive satisfaction she gets from putting her nose to the ground. I don't know what it's like for working dogs trained to do scent detection but scenting can definitely be it's own reward.

[Staranais]

Do they ever give them a win, if there has been no find for some time, ie set up a find?

I don't know about customs dogs, but with SAR airscenting & tracking/trailing dogs, handlers definitely do set up a find if they dog has been unsuccessful at locating the real victim.

We want the dogs believing that they will always find the subject & earn the reward if only they work hard enough. Since most days they won't find the person (due to the huge search area compared to area assigned to one dog team), setting up a situation on a search where they can "win" at the end of the day is imperative.

[Kavik]

I'm pretty sure they do set them up for a 'win' if they don't find anything for real

[Tapferhund]

Like I said, I have only heard that. But I know several trainers that have worked with him and they walked away unimpressed. But I have only heard these things, I have not seen Steve in action (seen him IRL, but not training).

The OP should go to all the kennels and talk to the trainers herself I agree. Only the OP knows her dog and what training methods will work. I know if I tried a check chain on my greyhound and started 'popping' she would fall to pieces.

Well you shouldn't go by what you 'have heard' shmoo and as for the 'other' trainers...I don't believe that either...unless they walked away unimpressed because Steve knows what he is doing and they didn't.

I have also been to several lectures and workshops by Steve and the man is brilliant ! He is a very understanding dog savvy person and an amazing trainer and I for one would trust him totally with any of my dogs..........and I don't say that lightly !

Your Grey might fall to pieces with the use of a slip chain...but yours is only ONE dog of several million throughout the country who wouldn't fall to bits. Slip chains, like any other piece of training equipment have their place in the training of dogs. There is NO right piece of equipment and NO wrong piece of equipment...just as there is NO one way to train a dog. Only closed minded people see it that way.