Animal Vaccinations

[Guest]

Today on the ABC midday news, it was stated that our animals are being over vaccinated, and should only need to be vaccinated every three years,A vet was quoted as saying that vaccinations was their main source of revenue.

On searching the net several other articles were found re the same issue, this is a link to one of them...

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensl...f-1225826866573

Lablove

[Sandra777]

nods.

As per the Australian Vet Association's own recommendations which were released about 8-10 months ago from memory. The US Vet Association has had these guidelines in place for at least 18 months.

[persephone]

Yes, apparently CHOICE magazine have done a story on it. It will be interesting to hear the vets' replies .

[Catahoula]

Yep, pretty sure we are one of the few countries that vaccinate annually. My dogs are done every two years. Lepto shots still annually as they are hunting dogs & frequent watercourses, swamps etc regulary....

I think NZ are every two years also! Someone correct me if i'm wrong

:D

[Crisovar]

May I ask why 2 yearly?

[Catahoula]

May I ask why 2 yearly?

Sure - to be honest it's an average i've decided on (and my kennels vary from 9+ dogs that are ALL vaccinated, wormed & micro chipped - proper care is always given at all costs in my kennels but i also do not wish to line the pockets of Vets for the sake of overvaccinating - ie yearly!). A very good friend of mine is a practising Vet & after many discussions & debates about this topic 2 yrs is the choice i've made. Europe & i beleive the USA are 3 years now, i believe NZ is 2 yrs also.

I'm waiting for the "OK" for the 3 year vacs....Seems a long time :D

I haven't/didn't hear/d the latest report on the ABC but i was led to believe it has been debated on here in Oz for quite some.

Vet board holding things up because $$$$$'s i pressume.

In any case, the time frame for vaccinations is an AVERAGE anyhow - immune systems react differently from dog to dog (human to human for that matter) & the ONLY way to know the "right" time to vaccinate is to get blood test for each individual dog.............

Edited August 18, 2010 by Catahoula

[D & D]

Yep, pretty sure we are one of the few countries that vaccinate annually. My dogs are done every two years. Lepto shots still annually as they are hunting dogs & frequent watercourses, swamps etc regulary....

I think NZ are every two years also! Someone correct me if i'm wrong

:D

Another Territorian

I get lepto vaccs for my dogs every year, too. Howard Springs vet does the three yearly vacc, my girl got her first one almost 12 months ago (so it's not a totally new thing here).

[stormie]

At a recent seminar held by the Animal Referral Hospital,the question was asked to the attending vets (I believe about 100 or so where there?? Maybe more?) who vaccinated triennially and just over half raised their hand. I think that's pretty good seeing the AVA only released the new protocol about 12 months ago.

Vaccines per se aren't the biggest revenue. We make very little from the actual vaccine. It's more the fact they come in the door for their vacc and we find things like lumps, rotting teeth etc which need surgery.

Unfortunately, vets have very little support in terms of the 3 year protocol. The AVA says its acceptable, but needs to be determined on a case by case basis. The manufacturers of annual vaccines will NOT give any support, should a dog come down with parvo that was given their vaccine off label, ie, 3 yearly. The vets would really be out on their own, to explain why they used the vaccine off label.

So most vets doing the new protocol will be using the registered 3 year vaccine.

The other issue is, the cost involved and welfare issues with registering a vaccine for 3 yearly use. What's involved in the testing phase in order to get approval and registration is pretty horrific, so I'm not sure where I stand on companies doing more testing.

Edited August 18, 2010 by stormie

[ravenau1]

I know it's not dogs, but I presume the protocol is the same.

When we had our cats vaccinated earlier this year, our Vet told us we now should go to 3 yearly vaccinations. It was the first I'd heard of it.

[Bonnie Pup]

Is the 3 yearly vacc different to the 1 yearly vacc, or is it just that the 1 yearly vacc is given every 3 years?

[New Age Outlaw]

Is the 3 yearly vacc different to the 1 yearly vacc, or is it just that the 1 yearly vacc is given every 3 years?

One of the articles I read made the implied that it is the same vaccine, just labelled as annual rather than 3 yearly. The article said that negotiations are under way with manufacturers to change the labelling of vaccine products in this country. Don't know how true that is though - you can't always trust everything you read in the papers!

Edited August 18, 2010 by New Age Outlaw

[mushka]

There is an interesting article here by Dr. Jean Dodds (DVM) about the studies being undertaken to see whether there is any benefit to repeated vaccination (after puppy boosters):

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM

I read a bit about this a while ago and am not up to date but my take-out message was that there was no clear answer as to whether repeated vaccines were necessary to maintain immunity and the yearly vaccine schedule seemed arbitrary. I think its interesting to consider the human situation where we get a series of vaccines and boosters for various diseases as children and are then considered good for a lifetime. But I know there is some debate about how long the chickenpox vaccine provides immunity for and whether adults might need boosters.

[Guest]

It becomes very confussing as well when you are asked by one vet if your dog goes into boarding kennel's and you say no and then told that you would only need the C3 vaccination, and then when you go back for the next lot of vacc's you are told by another vet in the same surgery that you have to have C5, and also have reminder 's sent out every year, to have your dog vaccinated.

also told by a vet that we shouldn't be giving our dog chicken necks, and another saying we shouldn't give our pup raw meat untill he's 12 months old.

also told our dog need's surgery for a luxating pattella because our dog was limping and a few days later dog was fine, and we found out later that one of the kids had stepped on her foot.

I just wish we could be told the truth, please to all the vets out there be honest with your client's and you will be much more respected.

lablove

[stormie]

Is the 3 yearly vacc different to the 1 yearly vacc, or is it just that the 1 yearly vacc is given every 3 years?

I know the Nobivac 3 yearly is different to their annual in that it has a different strain of Parvo. But other than that, there's nothing different about it to make it last 3 years - it's exactly the same type of vaccine as the annuals.

[asal]

It becomes very confussing as well when you are asked by one vet if your dog goes into boarding kennel's and you say no and then told that you would only need the C3 vaccination, and then when you go back for the next lot of vacc's you are told by another vet in the same surgery that you have to have C5, and also have reminder 's sent out every year, to have your dog vaccinated.

also told by a vet that we shouldn't be giving our dog chicken necks, and another saying we shouldn't give our pup raw meat untill he's 12 months old.

also told our dog need's surgery for a luxating pattella because our dog was limping and a few days later dog was fine, and we found out later that one of the kids had stepped on her foot.

I just wish we could be told the truth, please to all the vets out there be honest with your client's and you will be much more respected.

lablove

what i find amazing is this is only NOW being put out that yearly vaccinations are unnecessary?

my vet told me that in 1998?

I kid you not.

n yep some of em are amazing, friend was told a puppy she bred needed $3,000 surgery for elbow displacia. rang me in horror as the vet told the puppys owner to bill her and had phoned her to tell her he was sending her the bill when it was done. told her to demand the right to take it first to her vet for second opinion, to discover both elbows were fractured? they had let it jump from a verandah and at 9 months old it weighed more than its 5 year old mum it was so obese.

another friend whose vet vaccinated her cats yearly discovered the eldest developed pnemonia after his last 3 boosters, costing thousands to save him each time, and finally year 4 decided, maybe just maybe, it was the boosters nearly killing him. stopped the boosters and he lived another 5 years, without anymore health issues, made it to 21.

[asal]

At a recent seminar held by the Animal Referral Hospital,the question was asked to the attending vets (I believe about 100 or so where there?? Maybe more?) who vaccinated triennially and just over half raised their hand. I think that's pretty good seeing the AVA only released the new protocol about 12 months ago.

Vaccines per se aren't the biggest revenue. We make very little from the actual vaccine. It's more the fact they come in the door for their vacc and we find things like lumps, rotting teeth etc which need surgery.

Unfortunately, vets have very little support in terms of the 3 year protocol. The AVA says its acceptable, but needs to be determined on a case by case basis. The manufacturers of annual vaccines will NOT give any support, should a dog come down with parvo that was given their vaccine off label, ie, 3 yearly. The vets would really be out on their own, to explain why they used the vaccine off label.

So most vets doing the new protocol will be using the registered 3 year vaccine.

The other issue is, the cost involved and welfare issues with registering a vaccine for 3 yearly use. What's involved in the testing phase in order to get approval and registration is pretty horrific, so I'm not sure where I stand on companies doing more testing.

pardon me but when do the vaccine manufactures give ANY SUPPORT?????

i had a litter of lilac himalayan kittens 8 of them, the morning after their vaccination all but two were dead, and they were in a coma.

the vet managed to save one. when i went to pick her up and pay the bill he said it would amount to thousands and he had become attached to so so much he would prefer to keep her in lieu of the cost.

so, lost the lot, paid out hundres in having them vaccinated, do i even get any compensation for their deaths, zilch, return of vaccinations cost? zilch.

hey, no way it could have been the vaccine, i must have not noticed they were unwell and thats why they died.

so what do i discover 5 years later when a friend gets a job at the said vaccine company?

in the records, some 600 cats n kittens died that particular year when a contaminated batch went out before they twigged and recalled the rest of the batch.

soooo u tell me where they take any responsibility?

those kittens were worth over $1,000 each and already had deposits paid on the ones to be sold, all of which had to be returned.

that vet never once contacted me to tell me the vaccine had been recalled and i was entitled to any form of compensation?

i like the grieving owners of those other 592 cats and kittens would never have known why they died if but for pure chance.

Edited August 18, 2010 by asal

[asal]

n on that note, whenever do the vaccine companies take any responsibilty for puppies that die after vaccination?

lost an entire litter before i even arrived home once when they first released the new improved parvo vaccine in the 90's

one thing for sure they would never get parvo or anything else, they certainly were protected for "life" all right.

other litters id find some had died overnight, in one case 4 of 6 puppies dead. stuff of nightmares

ho, and are they aware of this?

i phoned them to lodge a complaint, and what do i get told?

"change breeds, its only chi's that are dying"

so i asked on this very forum who had lost puppies after vaccination and the list of breeds was awesome, so it wasnt just chi's that were having problems as he said.

Edited August 18, 2010 by asal

[Guest]

Thank you, dogsearch for that very interesting link, asal thats amazing 1998.

There are a lot of very good vets out there, we had a vet that treated our horse with accupuncture when he had Laminitis and it was amazing how quickly he recovered,and he also visited the agistment just to check up on him, and left us a note to say he had called, no charge, now thats what I call a caring vet.

lablove

[Lab lady]

I had one of mine to the vet 2 weeks ago and i raised the subject of vaccinating every 3 years. After a lengthy discussion my vet agreed that the yearly vaccine given every 3 years was most likely to be sufficient but due to the practice policy she was still required to recommend it be given yearly, with the exception of the kennel cough vaccine which she felt should still be required to be given yearly. The biggest concern she had was that many would not bring their animals in for general check ups within the 3 year period and general heath issues would be missed.

I had already made the decision to vaccinate mine triennially but as mine will be going into boarding soon and the vet hospital practice policy is still yearly it then means i don't have a current vaccination certificate and they would be rejected at the boarding kennels. The kennels are happy to except an animal on the 3 yearly regime provided the certificate reflects this. Mine as therefore all being vaccinated again and will not be done for another 3 years.

There is still a lot of work required to get a common practice agreed on.

[stormie]

Goodness, I was merely saying that if vets use a vaccine off label, as in, use it 3 yearly instead of annually, they are completely on their own if an animal gets sick. The vaccine company will say it wasn't the recommended dose and the vet could be taken before the Board, with very little to back themselves up. If they follow the guidelines if the vaccine, then atleast if something happens they have the guidelines of the vaccine company behind them. They used the correct dose as recommended on the label.

That's all I was saying.

The whole issue with regards to vaccine protocols is still being discussed and researched. It really is early days in the scheme of things and they are learning more all the time. It's being discussed at the ASAVA conference this month and they are saying we'll hear more after this in regards to where things are going.

There's so much more than just getting things to change instantly. There's the issue of Vaccine companies not wanting to do the necessary studies in order to get their product registered for longer duration. Again, this isn't a matter of just vaccinating a bunch of dogs and titre testing them years later. To get a drug registered there's a massive process involving control dogs etc.

Then there's the AVA. Yes, they've issued statements, but really, they're a bit wishy washy and don't really give vets a definite go ahead and their support, to use the annual vaccines 3 yearly.

Once Vets know they are doing things by the board, without any doubt they could get done should something go wrong, things will change.

At the recent ARH talk by a Specialist with regards to vaccine protocols, he very much advocated vaccinating more animals, but less often. It's about achieving herd immunity, which at the moment, we're not. We apparently only vaccinate 30% of the dog population - this does not achieve herd immunity.

But throughout the whole talk, he could not tell Vets what they should be doing. It was all suggestion but to base what they do on a case by case basis. No one can be sure that if we vaccinate a dog in a parvo free area 3 yearly, that it's safe to go into a parvo rife area. This is the problem. No one has clear cut evidence to give us clear directions. Even the titre testing results we get, they are learning new things about. What they have believed to be adequate levels, they are now questioning.

All anyone can tell the Vets to do, is to follow the manufacturers instructions on the Vaccines so if they go to triennial vaccines, use a registered vaccine to keep things above board and by the book.

Also, just for the record, though I know people will argue this, but the research they're doing suggests that the reactions we see to vaccines are not actually the vaccines themselves, but rather the animals having a problem with their immune system, which when stimulated with a vaccine, then has a melt down.

Edited August 19, 2010 by stormie