Patella Issue In Young Pup

[Tansy]

Posting here to get the opinions of both breeders and puppy buyers.

I bred a litter earlier this year where the focus was on soundness – the health testing on both the sire and dam exceeds that recommended for the breed. So, of course, Murphys Law, I have had a health issue pop up that I haven’t had before.

One of my puppies went to a home about five hours away. He is now six months old and has been diagnosed with bilateral luxating patellas. He was recently desexed and was xrayed at the time, and the patellas are ‘very bad’ (I was previously told grade 3, not sure what they currently believe them to be graded as).

Initially there were no problems with the puppy when he went home. They were first time dog owners, so lots of contact in the first weeks (reassuring them about toilet training etc). There was no mention of any issues until he went for his second vet visit (first was a vet check when he first went home, and then second was routine vacc), and they diagnosed luxating patellas at that time. Since then the updates have been about how the puppy is limping etc.

Both sire and dam have excellent patellas. There is no history in the dam’s line of patella issues, and the stud dog owner (some one I know and trust) assures me there are no issues in the stud’s line, and he hasn’t produced any patella issues previously. I have a written statement from the stud dog owners vet regarding his patellas. One pup was sold locally and I retained one, and I have taken these two to my own vet, and he says their patellas are good and strong, and he also rechecked the dam. He also examined the pups before they left, and didn’t find any issues with the pup at the time. He has offered to talk to either the new owners or their vet, and I have given them his phone number, but I don’t believe they have called him. I have contacted the others in the litter, and no issues have come to light with the other pups.

I don’t feel I could have done much more to prevent this from occurring, and I guess sometimes things just happen. The flip side is though, these puppy buyers did all the right things (researching the breed, waited for the right pup etc), and it is hardly fair that they are left with a huge vet bill (they have been quoted $3,000 to repair both legs – have been told they need to have the operation done by a Specialist).

Ideally I would like my own vet see the dog for a second opinion, but they are a 10 hour round trip away, so I doubt they will want to bring him to me.

I have no issue with refunding the purchase price of the puppy (around a third of the quote for the operation). I mean, the $$ will hurt, and I will probably need to sell the pup I kept for myself to fund this, which sort of defeats the whole purpose of this litter, but I feel it's probably the fair thing to do. Realistically though I can’t afford to fund the operation, especially if they chose to have it done by a Specialist. Without seeing the dog my own vet gave me a rough quote of about half the cost. He is not a Specialist, but I know he has done the operation with good outcomes in the past.

So, my question to breeders is – what do you believe your obligations are in this situation? And, my question to puppy buyers is – what do you believe is fair and appropriate support from a breeder in this situation? For puppy buyers who have been in this situation, what support did you get from the breeder?

[Guest RANDCMOORE31]

As a puppy buyer - I think that you have done as much in terms of prevention as is possible - and occasionally - things just happen that are no-one's fault. I think it would be great if you wanted to help them by offering the price of the puppy - and would certainly show good faith - but really - I think it's just bad luck - and the cost is something they should accept as part of the decision to take the puppy into their lives and accept responsibility for it.

[Kaffy Magee]

When a breeder has done everything possible to ensure they have bred a healthy pup, I believe any health issues that arise in the puppy come down to bad luck. Having said that I would feel terrible for the puppy buyers and offer them the purchase price of the puppy back or replace the puppy(which Im sure wouldnt occur in most cases as they have grown attached). Where they get their puppy treated is up to them, but if you were going to pay for the surgery than it is only fair that you get to choose the vet.

[OSoSwift]

Sorry this has happened to you.

I would ask them if they are prepared to have your vet look at him, can't hurt to ask. If they cannot bring him to you can they get a second opinion of another vet that is closer to them. You are not saying that their vet is no good, but from your point of view you need to know as the outcome could change your breeding program.

I think refunding the purchase price of the pup is more than fair and I would not expect the surgery to be covered.

As much as I would hate to have a puppy that had that sort of problem and needed surgery sometimes things in life just happen. You have done everything you could of to reduce the incident of the puppies having a problem, but nothing can guarenteed to NEVER happen. If I get a rescue or BYB bred puppy and I have the same problem I am on my own. So I think the fact you are willing to refund the puppies purchase price is IMO an act of good faith.

Good luck.

Where they get their puppy treated is up to them, but if you were going to pay for the surgery than it is only fair that you get to choose the vet.

This also sounds reasonable to me.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Rommi n Lewis

[Monah]

What a shame. I'me sure you are just as , if not more, upset than the owner.xxxx

I did all the right things,(have had and shown dogs for years), breeder did ALL the right things and I have documents to prove it that came in the puppy pack. Dog HD in both hips, $8,000 operation.

It's one of those things, nature is perverse, we can try our hardest to 'control' it but that is it. I expect nothing and have had fantastic support from the wonderful breeder. I feel you are and have been doing a great job.xxx

[Christina]

Bugger of a problem. The pup can't be left like this.

I would suggest that they bring the dog to your vet, the price they have is excessive & does not need to be a specialist vet as long as the vet chosen is experienced in doing this operation.

If they don't want to return pup to you for full refund I would offer to pay the full cost of the puppy to the vet who is doing the surgery towards the bill, so you are 100% sure it does get done.

Despite all checks possible I do believe the problem to be hereditary & it can crop up out of the blue despite skipping generations.

Not your fault or the new owners so I would meet them half way by a full refund.

[oakway]

Could this be case of to much weight on the puppies legs or a case of over exercise. Could this case have been man made.

[Souff]

Tansy, this is rotten luck and an age-old problem. If you research the dogs in the generations behind the parents, you will probably find that there is a dog with serious patella problems lurking there. No point in beating yourself up over it though.

If you have seen their vets report and you are of the opinion that it is not practical or affordable for the pup to travel to your vet, you could contact another vet in the owners area and ask them to do an independent report at your cost - with the owners cooperation - so that you can then compare the 2 reports.

If it is much the same then all you can really do is to refund the purchase price, which you have said you will do. That is fair.

If the second vet report suggests that there is no problem, then the owners need to change their vet, pronto.

If there is a genuine problem than the op is needed and at least your refund will be a help for the owners.

FYI for future litters, many vets are excellent at diagnosing patella problems at 6 weeks. If there is an indication of a problem then, you can at least hold off selling and review your options.

Souff

[skip]

I am looking at buying a pup in the near future. If it was me in this case I would be stunned and very grateful if the breeder offered me my purchase money back. And as to the the rest of the vet cost - it is just bad luck and one of the possible costs involved when you decide to have a dog.

Hardly seems fair to you thou. I would like to know that nothing the new owners did could cause this problem. Like over stress/ exercise etc.

And as the owner I would like to know that a vet my breeder trusts can do the operation at half the price ( with good results). Depends on what the op invovles and how much I trust the breeder and her vet - maybe would be better to do the op elsewhere. I would never dodge the costs but I don't like wasting money needlessly either.

I think as Christina says - if you decide to refund, pay the vet so the money is going to the right place. I don't know if you can trust anyone these days.

Would their vet pass on Xrays etc to your vet so you can see what has happened. As a breeder you must really want to see yourself.

Sorry for this situation. I hope any breeder I choose is as genuine as yourself.

[pie]

Sorry this has happened to you.

I would ask them if they are prepared to have your vet look at him, can't hurt to ask. If they cannot bring him to you can they get a second opinion of another vet that is closer to them. You are not saying that their vet is no good, but from your point of view you need to know as the outcome could change your breeding program.

I think refunding the purchase price of the pup is more than fair and I would not expect the surgery to be covered.

As much as I would hate to have a puppy that had that sort of problem and needed surgery sometimes things in life just happen. You have done everything you could of to reduce the incident of the puppies having a problem, but nothing can guarenteed to NEVER happen. If I get a rescue or BYB bred puppy and I have the same problem I am on my own. So I think the fact you are willing to refund the puppies purchase price is IMO an act of good faith.

Good luck.

Where they get their puppy treated is up to them, but if you were going to pay for the surgery than it is only fair that you get to choose the vet.

This also sounds reasonable to me.

Agree with RnL.

I think your vet should look at the pup too.

Not sure how severe it is in this situation but if it was okay for the puppy I personally would prefer to wait until the puppy is grown, sometimes patella issues sort themselves out once growing is finished and I wouldn't want to put the puppy through surgery that may turn out unnecessary.

[Staranais]

So, my question to breeders is – what do you believe your obligations are in this situation? And, my question to puppy buyers is – what do you believe is fair and appropriate support from a breeder in this situation? For puppy buyers who have been in this situation, what support did you get from the breeder?

I was in a similar situation earlier this year with my new girl (shoulders, not patellas). Edited to add, the breeder did all the right things (except x-ray shoulders, but that's not common to do), we did all the right things too. Just bad luck, I guess, but it ended up costing more than a thousand dollars to fix her up. So who should pay?

I can see both points of view. It's my puppy now - so whatever happens to her is now my responsibility. But on the other hand, if the breeder washes their hands of a possibly genetic issue the second the puppy leaves the property, then what really makes them different to a BYB?

As a puppy buyer, I have come to the conclusion that I believe the breeder should pay half the treatment cost, or else offer back the price of the puppy to put towards the treatment (whichever is the smaller sum). Then they should not be liable for anything else. And if they want to demand that the dog is desexed/sterilised and not used for breeding, I think that is OK too, as a condition for the refund.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Staranais

[Catahoula]

Gees Tansy,

You have obviously done as much as you could have before you bred!

I'm no expert on the problem by no means but i'm pretty sure it is a very high probability of being inherited. So you are VERY unlucky or your not quite getting the whole truth when researching your sire & dams bloodlines...Don't forget litter mates of both sides also need to be researched.....

That aside - I would a. offer a full refund with the new owner to decide after that what they wish to do with the dog. I would insist (and pay for a desexing)

b. offer a pup from a future litter with still the option of there choice as to the future of the problem dog...

Good Luck with it!

[sas]

I think the point is that you bred the dog and so therefore are responsible for it, even if you tried your best not to bred from affected stock, something still happened that was not the owners fault so you should reimburse the owner in my opinion or assist them with vet treatment.

[t-time]

Call me stupid but I offer a full refund for a pup with a genetic problem and require return of the pup. Most owners would naturally want to keep the pup/dog and if I think it is a suitable option, I require that the pup is desexed (if it's not already) and I will not be held liable financially for future operations if it is their desire to keep the pup.

I also do my best to ensure the parents are health tested and pups are vet checked and strongly recommend pet insurance. In this circumstance - and I'm not sure if an insurance company covers patellas - but as you can prove the pup left you healthy and you have a vet report from that age stating the pup's patellas were fine on delivery, and both lines are clear of patella issues - the current owner would have a good claim opportunity to fix their pup as it's not "genetic" or "pre-existing".

I would be wanting a second opinion either from your own vet or another recommended to you by breeders/show people closer to the owners if distance is a problem.

It sounds like your puppy buyers are being very co-operative and only want the best care for their baby so ask for another vet consult at your cost and see what the outcome is.....best of luck Tansy - terrible situation for you.

[juice]

I thinks as said before, refund purchase price to vet doing op, but recommend your vet. Then its up to them who they choose, but as a condition the dog is desexed too.

[Didles]

Something very similar happened to us and our Baby, we spoke to the breeder and after much thought we kept him, the purchase price was refunded and it paid for the surgery and desexed at the same time.

I think that conditions such as desexing is fair enough as you never know what happens even an accidental mating.

It does show good faith and in my experience I would not have any problems going back to the same breeder they were caring, gave us options but were not demanding, and let us decide what we wanted to do. The puppy buyers are hurting as well as, like you said they have bonded being demanding or telling them it's this way or on your own will not be fair. And yes it is something that just happens.

[aussielover]

I am sorry to hear about this when you have done all the right things.

Is luxating patella common in your breed (just out of interest)?

Personally, as a puppy buyer myself, I would not expect you to pay anything at all, especially if the problem is not common in the breed. However the offer of a refund is very generous imo. I think that is probably the best thing to do, if you insist on getting your own vet to do it, the owners may feel "ripped off" or uncomfortable that they are not getting a specialist to do it, especially seeing as they have already been told (rightly or wrongly) that a specialist should do it.

If it were my pup, I would personally prefer to have a specialist do the op, no matter what the cost (at my own expense obviously) but that is just my personal preference.

I would only expect you to take into consideration this problem and look at your breeding program to see if it could be prevented in future (unlikey- sounds like bad luck).

[Dory the Doted One]

Just a Question.

So why is it that if the new owners chooses to keep the defective pup that no purchase price is refunded? And If a new owner does decide to return the pup, what do breeders do with the puppy?

I just always thought that little stipulation was a bit of a cop out. Although I do understand if my toaster is broken I have to return the broken one to the store to get a refund or replacement toaster. But then, I don't get that emotionally attached to my toaster either. And I'm not gonna feel sad, bad and guilty if the toaster ended up in toaster heaven.

On the other hand, whenever i have purchased a pedigree dog, I took whatever came on the chin. Fortunately I didn't get any physical problems in my dogs, cosmetic issues on a show/breeding prospect though....strangely the breeders couldn't help me there...(weren't interested, which annoyed me because they kept assuring me that it wasn't a problem and would change as he got older). I still kept him and loved him and just got another dog instead.

[Tansy]

Thanks everyone for your feedback - sounds like i am on the right track. I do really feel for the puppy owners, as I think it is a really sucky situation all round. They haven't made any demands on me, but just trying to work out what is a 'fair' thing to offer them.

I have had a recommendation of another vet, who is about half way between us who would be good to get a second opinion from. Hopefully they will be willing to take the puppy there, as I can also understand that they may have reservations about taking the pup to my vet, worried he might 'side' with me (personally, I have a lot of trust in him to do the right thing for the dog, but they don't know him), but this other vet would be independent, and from what I hear, pulls no punches.

As to the question of environment, the photos I have seen of the pup he is definitely not overweight, and I don't think over exercise would be an issue. When they first said he was limping I asked what floor surfaces they had and they said polished floors. I asked them to put rugs down etc so he wasn't slipping on the boards, but they said they didn't think it was an issue. That did annoy me a bit, but really, if his patellas are as bad as is being made out, I don't think it can just be the floors, just likely they have aggravated the situation.

Is luxating patella common in your breed (just out of interest)?

It is not an 'uncommon' problem in the breed, but not one I have had to deal with before. I have had one dog that I bought in from some one else that had quite loose patellas (could be manually manipulated in and out), but didn't require surgery, and I had him desexed. In the distant past I know I have on at least one occassion let my heart rule my head and done a mating that the conformation of the dogs was not as sound as it should have been. Of course, never had an issue with any of the pups from that mating, and now when I put much more focus on soundness I do!

[Tansy]

Just a Question.

So why is it that if the new owners chooses to keep the defective pup that no purchase price is refunded? And If a new owner does decide to return the pup, what do breeders do with the puppy?

I would only ever ask for the pup back in exchange for a refund if I really felt the condition was completely made up, or if it seemed in the best interest of the pup (i.e. the new owner wanted money back, but wasn't going to spend the money on the dogs health etc). My preference would always be for the puppy to stay with his new family.

The flip side is if the new puppy buyers didn't want to keep the pup, then I would also take it back, refunding their money. In my current situation, if this was to occur, I would bring him home and see how the patellas were, and get him assessed by my vet. Based on my vets advise I would either get the operation, or keep him here until he is finished growing (my vet hasn't seen the pup since 8 weeks, but feels six months is too young to be racing into patella surgery, but perhaps he would change his mind once he saw the pup). Once the puppy was 'sound', either after an operation or not, I would sell the puppy with full disclosure of the condition - we have a lot of demand for older puppies/young adults. He is already desexed, and we can normally get full puppy price for a young desexed adult, but I would expect to sell him for less.

From a purely financial point of view, I would likely end up more out of pocket taking the puppy back and paying for the op myself than I would by just refunding the money to the puppy buyer. I'd also be a bit sad that the home the puppy went to didn't think enough of him to want to keep him, even with his problems, but of course I can understand that the operation etc may be out of their budget.