Ignore Ignore Ignore?

[Maia]

Hi all,

I have a query about Sophie, my 14 week old Cavalier. I have had her for a month now and in general she is a great little puppy and I love her to bits. She has occasional bouts of puppy madness where I wonder what on earth I have got myself in for, but mostly she is pretty easy puppy... as far as puppies go. :-)

One problem though. Her whining and carrying when being left alone.

Sophie sleeps through the night in a crate next to my bed. She goes in without a fuss and goes straight to sleep. BUT at 5 or 6am when she needs to go to the toilet, she starts to cry and scratch. Ok, so I quietly take her out for poo and pee, and then back inside, and back into her crate. She used to be a lot better about settling back to sleep, but now, once she's up in the morning, she's UP! And she just goes on and on and on. I have never got her out when she is doing this, other than when I have thought she needed to go to the toilet, and then she always goes straight back into the crate.

Same deal with the play pen. Throughout the day there are times we need space and can't be watching her, so she goes into the playpen (in the centre of the house - not isolated). Sometimes she is fine and crawls into bed with a toy, but sometimes she just doesn't want to be in there and cries and whines and barks and scratches...

The woman who ran my puppy preschool said to ignore ignore ignore. She said growling is just rewarding the behaviour. So this is what we do. Ignore. But she just goes on and on and on... and, well there is a point where you just want to scream "SHUUUUT UUUUUP!!!!!" (We don't, mind you.)

So what I am wondering is this - SHOULD we just keep on with the ignoring and eventually she will learn, or should we be doing negative reinforcement things like I have read about before like a bang on the crate, or a can with coins thrown near where she is, or a sneaky squirt from a squirty bottle?

She really is a great little pup and I don't want to mess her up and I want to make sure all of us in the family are doing the same thing with her training.

Thanks in advance.

Maia

[corvus]

Look at it from her perspective. What do you think she's trying to tell you? Maybe that she doesn't want to be in the boring pen away from her people? Do you think it's fair to punish her for trying to tell you that?

If it were me, I'd be concentrating on making the pen a place where she does want to be rather than her telling you she doesn't want to be there. Have you got any Kongs or dried treats like lamb ears? This is the perfect moment to give her something like that. It will give her something to do that she will enjoy and teach her that being in the pen is quiet, independent time for her.

[Maia]

Look at it from her perspective. What do you think she's trying to tell you? Maybe that she doesn't want to be in the boring pen away from her people? Do you think it's fair to punish her for trying to tell you that?

If it were me, I'd be concentrating on making the pen a place where she does want to be rather than her telling you she doesn't want to be there. Have you got any Kongs or dried treats like lamb ears? This is the perfect moment to give her something like that. It will give her something to do that she will enjoy and teach her that being in the pen is quiet, independent time for her.

Thanks for your reply.

Her pen is full of stuffed kongs, chew treats, raw meaty bones and the squeaky toys she loves.

Often I am in the kitchen cooking, while she is in the pen, so right where she can see me. She is rarely in there for more than an hour a time, and usually twice only during the day.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Maia

[Nekhbet]

dont ever bash the crate or throw cans with coins ... quick way to terrorise a dog! If she's absolutely being a pain and 1)does not need to go to the toilet (make sure first) 2) is not cold, hungry, thirsty etc then I would give her a quick squirt with the bottle when she's in her play pen NOT in her crate. Crates are a place of safety, imagine if you were locked in a small room then hosed down! Your trust level would sink quickly. When you put her back in the crate I would give her something yummy to munch on until you're ready to get up. Crates always have to be places of good things, not a place where the dog cannot escape an aversive. In her pen she can get around, go to bed, play with her toys etc, she has another option of what to do. You simply need to teach her that she can do something else productive while you're up and about.

[aussielover]

Well, if you have tried one technique for a while and it hasn't been working, the obvious thing to do is to change tactics and see if anything else will work (within reason).

You could try saying a firm "no" or spray bottle as Nekhbet suggested, once you have made sure she doesn't need to toilet and is comfortable.

Sometimes puppy needs to be told that a behaviour isn't acceptable.

[lovemesideways]

Rather than looking at how you can punish her, start looking for what you can reward.

While shes whining ect, continue to ignore. When she goes silent for at least 10 seconds (count it out in your head). Then she gets attention! "Good girl!! Yaaay!!' Go over and make a big fuss over her. Pats, cuddles, a quick play. Then put her back into the pen and walk off. Then repeat.

This way she's learning that by being silent, she gets attention.

People often look at punishing a dog for the bad stuff, but they don't reward for the good. She probably has no idea that silence is good, because whether she barks or shes quiet, its the same.

[spottychick]

Great point LMS - that's what I'd be trying before I used squirting etc. They need to understand what's expected of them first otherwise anything "aversive" just frightens and confuses them.

[Genabee]

I had the same issue with my cav puppy, though she was a bit older when she started this (see previous threads with regards to my not sleeping and wanting to cry).

I can tell you, it does get better... they do out grow it.

If you are spending too much time with her during the day though, it does make it harder for her when you do need to be apart. Also remember to reward thick and fast for the good things she does.

She will out grow it, we just have to be patient.

PS. I also found a good training session right before bed helped too, as it really wore her out! Feeding her kibble in a water bottle (or specific food dispensing toy) also helped as she wore herself out trying to get to her food! Wearing them out means more sleep!

Good luck!

[W Sibs]

Rather than looking at how you can punish her, start looking for what you can reward.

While shes whining ect, continue to ignore. When she goes silent for at least 10 seconds (count it out in your head). Then she gets attention! "Good girl!! Yaaay!!' Go over and make a big fuss over her. Pats, cuddles, a quick play. Then put her back into the pen and walk off. Then repeat.

This way she's learning that by being silent, she gets attention.

People often look at punishing a dog for the bad stuff, but they don't reward for the good. She probably has no idea that silence is good, because whether she barks or shes quiet, its the same.

I agree with this

[aussielover]

Unfortunately some dogs can carry on for hours without so much as a 5 second break.

I intended to try to train a dog at work this way, but the dog had not stopped barking/whinging by the end of my shift

You could try to teach "shhh" usually they will stop and stare at you, reward them for silence after you have said shhh

Mindy knows shhh (and speak) I have found it useful, she doesn't really bark anymore though but sometimes if i ask her to speak she gets a little excited whihc is where a "quiet" command is useful

[Maia]

Thanks sooo much everyone.

I am going to try the rewarding for quiet, etc. Shorter times in pen, interspersed with play. See how we go.

Wizzle I had a look at some of your older posts. Interesting to see how Genevieve has developed and things you have gone through with her. I am finding Sophie has just got more intense in general at the moment - I guess it's an age thing. We are starting obedience in a couple of weeks. Looking forward to it.

Thanks again.

Maia

[Genabee]

Thanks sooo much everyone.

I am going to try the rewarding for quiet, etc. Shorter times in pen, interspersed with play. See how we go.

Wizzle I had a look at some of your older posts. Interesting to see how Genevieve has developed and things you have gone through with her. I am finding Sophie has just got more intense in general at the moment - I guess it's an age thing. We are starting obedience in a couple of weeks. Looking forward to it.

Thanks again.

Maia

One thing I have learned (and there are many things I have learned!!) since having a bought her home, she is a very intelligent dog! None of the literature I read (about cavs) prior to bringing her home, warned me of this. She learns relatively fast when she wants to and she is persistent at working towards what she wants! Because they are intelligent, you have to keep them stimulated - and mentally wear them out. It is also common for dogs to go through a phase of forgetting everything...

I had my first full nights sleep last night - I slept with her on the bed with me until 10.30am - unheard of!!!! This was not due to her winging incidently (I have had a very emotional weekend and last night was the icing on the cake! I took her to bed with me for the company).

Something that might work for you - I bought a plastic bottle type thing with a rope coming out of it.... you put treats in it and they have to work out how to get them out. If you feed her dry food, put her morning meal in it and give it to her while you go back to bed. That might keep her busy! If Sophie is anything like Genevieve though, you will notice a difference once she starts regular school!

[frufru]

Maia, I actually think that if your puppy has been asleep all night and wakes at 5 or 6am then it is time to get up and do some playing, training and running around in the back yard. I would expect an elderly dog to come back in after a wee and go back to sleep but not a puppy. JMO

We have a 13 week old standard poodle puppy who is crated at night and also penned occassionally during the day - we make sure that she has plenty of activity before we put her in the pen - that way she is happy to have a nap and or munch on a pigs ear etc

[aussielover]

As depressing as it is, i agree with frufru. Once puppies are up in the morning- they are UP.

My puppy wakes at 6am EVERY SINGLE MORNING so no sleep in for me!!!

I actually will toilet her, then walk her immediately and then come home and give her a chew- a pig ear, liver chew, greenie, bone etc

Then I can sometimes get back to bed at around 8am if i need to (if i don't have work or uni), she is quite happy to settle after this.

[lovemesideways]

Unfortunately some dogs can carry on for hours without so much as a 5 second break.

I intended to try to train a dog at work this way, but the dog had not stopped barking/whinging by the end of my shift

You could try to teach "shhh" usually they will stop and stare at you, reward them for silence after you have said shhh

Mindy knows shhh (and speak) I have found it useful, she doesn't really bark anymore though but sometimes if i ask her to speak she gets a little excited whihc is where a "quiet" command is useful

If a dog is carrying on for hours, then the level you're attempting to train at is too high.

Same as if you're training a stay and your dog consistently breaks the stay. You don't start yelling at her or squirting with water whenever she moves, you take it back a step to where she will understand whats going on.

[aussielover]

Unfortunately some dogs can carry on for hours without so much as a 5 second break.

I intended to try to train a dog at work this way, but the dog had not stopped barking/whinging by the end of my shift

You could try to teach "shhh" usually they will stop and stare at you, reward them for silence after you have said shhh

Mindy knows shhh (and speak) I have found it useful, she doesn't really bark anymore though but sometimes if i ask her to speak she gets a little excited whihc is where a "quiet" command is useful

If a dog is carrying on for hours, then the level you're attempting to train at is too high.

Same as if you're training a stay and your dog consistently breaks the stay. You don't start yelling at her or squirting with water whenever she moves, you take it back a step to where she will understand whats going on.

what do you mean by that?

do you mean you should wait for a one second break, or in try in a different enviroment?

I admit, that at the vets is a pretty stimulating place and there are always people and animals coming and going.

Thw owner doesn't mind the barking apparently... (wonder if the neighbors do?)

On a happier note, mindy's barking has basically stopped completely. yay

I don't really know if its because of the "training" we did with her- leaving her in the crate and then rewarding her for 10 seconds of silence (method described by LMS) or the fact that she is a lot more mature now and trusts us enough to know that we won't leave her forever! I suspect a combination of the 2

The other day we had to put her in the car crate which she hates (last time she was in it she crapped herself and howled for 30 minutes and did this pretty much everytime she was in it). She was SO GOOD, she just lay down and went to sleep- no fuss at all, no barking , no pooing (thankfully). I was amazed because i haven't been doing any extra training with her in the crate because she usually goes in another position now. What a good puppy

[lovemesideways]

Unfortunately some dogs can carry on for hours without so much as a 5 second break.

I intended to try to train a dog at work this way, but the dog had not stopped barking/whinging by the end of my shift

You could try to teach "shhh" usually they will stop and stare at you, reward them for silence after you have said shhh

Mindy knows shhh (and speak) I have found it useful, she doesn't really bark anymore though but sometimes if i ask her to speak she gets a little excited whihc is where a "quiet" command is useful

If a dog is carrying on for hours, then the level you're attempting to train at is too high.

Same as if you're training a stay and your dog consistently breaks the stay. You don't start yelling at her or squirting with water whenever she moves, you take it back a step to where she will understand whats going on.

what do you mean by that?

do you mean you should wait for a one second break, or in try in a different enviroment?

I admit, that at the vets is a pretty stimulating place and there are always people and animals coming and going.

Thw owner doesn't mind the barking apparently... (wonder if the neighbors do?)

On a happier note, mindy's barking has basically stopped completely. yay

I don't really know if its because of the "training" we did with her- leaving her in the crate and then rewarding her for 10 seconds of silence (method described by LMS) or the fact that she is a lot more mature now and trusts us enough to know that we won't leave her forever! I suspect a combination of the 2 :D

The other day we had to put her in the car crate which she hates (last time she was in it she crapped herself and howled for 30 minutes and did this pretty much everytime she was in it). She was SO GOOD, she just lay down and went to sleep- no fuss at all, no barking , no pooing (thankfully). I was amazed because i haven't been doing any extra training with her in the crate because she usually goes in another position now. What a good puppy

What I mean is that the level of stress on the dog may be too high. Which is why the dog doesn't take a break in the barking. So rather than having them in say, another room. You start with them closer to you, lower the level of stress. How you would change it is depending on the current environment.

[aussielover]

Oh ok, i get it now, thanks

[frufru]

Exactly - when we first started using the puppy pen I didnt' even leave the room and rewarded the puppy for being quiet - then when she was comfortable with this I walked out of her sight and then straight back in so that she gets the idea she can't see me but it is no biggy and then I increase the amount of time she can't see me - now a couple of weeks down the track we can be gone for several hours and she is fine. We also feed her in her pen as it is next to the kitchen - now she goes an stands next to the pen when I am preparing her food - so cute.

[Maia]

Reading all of this stuff has been so helpful to me.

There was also a thread on another forum here that helped.

Today has been a great day with Sophie. Part of my problem is that I am working a lot at the moment and while my partner is usually there with her when I am not home, and gives her lots of love and care, he doesn't do the things with her like I do. So today was a day off and we just did heaps together, walks, playing in the back yard, games, training... and the time she has been alone in her playpen she has been okay.

Interesting and a bit depressing about them being ready to be up and about at 5 am! Yikes! Still, we will work our way around it. :-)

Thanks all,

Maia