Anticipation & Bad Behaviour

[corvus]

Not every dog that is calmer is shut down. If the dog is still responsive to their environment they are not shut down. There are a few theories floating around why head collars appear to make dogs behave more calmly, but none involve learned helplessness because the data don't support it. The calmer dogs wearing head collars do not have elevated levels of stress hormones, which would indicate that they feel helpless to control their situation. As long as we're talking about things that decrease arousal, head collars ought to be mentioned. I understand some behaviourists are using them specifically to lower arousal in the home environment, but that may be me over-extrapolating. Personally, I love TTouch and that would be my first port of call, but it's only fair to mention the claimed calming (not shutting down) effects of head collars.

[huski]

Not every dog that is calmer is shut down. If the dog is still responsive to their environment they are not shut down. There are a few theories floating around why head collars appear to make dogs behave more calmly, but none involve learned helplessness because the data don't support it. The calmer dogs wearing head collars do not have elevated levels of stress hormones, which would indicate that they feel helpless to control their situation. :D As long as we're talking about things that decrease arousal, head collars ought to be mentioned. I understand some behaviourists are using them specifically to lower arousal in the home environment, but that may be me over-extrapolating. Personally, I love TTouch and that would be my first port of call, but it's only fair to mention the claimed calming (not shutting down) effects of head collars.

Sorry, I wasn't saying calm meant shut down. I was being a bit cheeky.

How would theories that say head collars don't shut dog downs, explain the way I've seen dogs go from aroused and excited to appearing stressed, withdrawn, head down, etc the minute a head collar is put on? There are quite a few people at my obedience club who use head collars who put them on their dogs and think it's great that they are now behaving simply because they lose that excitedness and drive they had before. And that's fine for them, but it is the opposite of how I train and what I like to see in my dogs.

Note: I'm not saying all dogs put on head collars are like that, just that what appears to be 'calmness' can be interpreted differently.

Edited August 15, 2010 by huski

[wuffles]

Some people at my club have dogs that work really well with halters, with good focus and enthusiasm. I've seen some that shut down and some that just calm down.

[huski]

Some people at my club have dogs that work really well with halters, with good focus and enthusiasm. I've seen some that shut down and some that just calm down.

I've seen dogs work well on halters too :D Although most who I have seen with a dog working with good focus and enthusiasm with one on could have the dog work just as well without it (same rule applies for tools other than head collars too of course).

[corvus]

How would theories that say head collars don't shut dog downs, explain the way I've seen dogs go from aroused and excited to appearing stressed, withdrawn, head down, etc the minute a head collar is put on? There are quite a few people at my obedience club who use head collars who put them on their dogs and think it's great that they are now behaving simply because they lose that excitedness and drive they had before. And that's fine for them, but it is the opposite of how I train and what I like to see in my dogs.

There are no theories that say head collars don't shut down dogs. Only theories that say dogs appear to behave more calmly when wearing a head collar because... The reasons I've seen suggested (and they are suggestions, not claims) is that the pressure is on the bridge of the nose and the back of the neck, which mimics pressure from signals used by dominant dogs. It's also been suggested that just the pressure alone is calming in the way that a crush or wrap is calming. As I said, the data don't support learned helplessness because the stress hormones in dogs with head collars that act calmer have not so far been shown to be elevated. The dog may look stressed, but that doesn't mean it is. We had this discussion not long ago. It was about a study of a small number of dogs, and no one is claiming anything is consistent for all dogs. We just know that a dog that puts its head and ears and tail down and moves with less energy is not necessarily physiologically stressed.

I know you said you weren't saying shut down and learned helplessness were the same thing, but I think for the purposes of the discussion they have to be considered the same thing. There is no diagnosis for "shut down" that I know of. Only of behavioural suppression, which in a general sense is learned helplessness. If "shut down" is not learned helplessness or generalised behavioural suppression I don't know what it is.

[Stitch]

OK, I think I can resolve this discussion on head halters.

I didn't realise that it was HEAD harnesses/halters you were referring to.

Personally I have never liked them however as I show this dog and also do obedience they are just not what I want to use.

I tried the adjustable martingale collar up high on the neck and it was OK, definitely better than a loose one but nothing beats the choker used high up.

I think in this case that the Illusion collar may just be what is needed but as I don't think I can get them in Australia I will have to use what is available.

The excitement in this dog is now progressing to situations that weren't 'yipped' at before!!!!

[Staff'n'Toller]

OK, I think I can resolve this discussion on head halters.

I didn't realise that it was HEAD harnesses/halters you were referring to.

Personally I have never liked them however as I show this dog and also do obedience they are just not what I want to use.

I tried the adjustable martingale collar up high on the neck and it was OK, definitely better than a loose one but nothing beats the choker used high up.

I think in this case that the Illusion collar may just be what is needed but as I don't think I can get them in Australia I will have to use what is available.

The excitement in this dog is now progressing to situations that weren't 'yipped' at before!!!!

I wasn't referring to head collars.

[Stitch]

OK, I haven't seen that one.

Can you tell me how it prevents the dog from pulling??

[Staff'n'Toller]

OK, I haven't seen that one.

Hence why I posted a you tube link.

Can you tell me how it prevents the dog from pulling??

Instead of a traditional harness that encourages the dog to pull into it due to their opposition reflex, the front attach harnesses place some pressure across the shoulders and chest depending on which side they are pulling towards (L or R). The constant pressure encourages them to move in towards you and not pull too far in front.

With the halti harness and the blackdog balance harness, you use a double ended lead. The ring on the back is like your brakes (stop and go) and the lead at the front is your left and right steering as such.

As I said previously, google TTouch balance lead and you will find out how it was traditionally developed, hence the adaptions to these recent harness designs.

[Stitch]

I have yet to get to fully investigate the TT touch but I have heard of it.

Staffntoller, have you used the harness on a hyperactive dog that really pulls??

If so, can you describe your experience?

[Staff'n'Toller]

I have fitted many dogs of which their owners have previously had varying control. It is not the be-all, end-all tool, just like martingales, correction chains, head halters etc etc. On the majority of dogs it works very well but the owner has to be committed to catching and rewarding the behaviour changes very quickly to gain a lasting effect.

I can't tell you what effect it will or won't have over on your dog over the internet. Your dog may not just be hyperactive but anxious and possibly what you are doing, as well as what you are not doing, may be fuelling this type of anxiety. I assume from your statements that you bred this dog? By the information you give it seems more than just an excited dog...but you know the dog best.

Since you say the behaivour is escalating you would most benefit from finding a very experienced trainer or even a Veterinary Behaviourist. I wouldn't be doing much in the way of showing or training until you've consulted with someone and worked out a plan of attack.

[Stitch]

Many thanks for those links Wuffles, I have ordered Control Unleashed from Wagschool Books and look forward to reading it and trying the exercises.

Thanks again for all the positive helpful replies!