Skruffy n Flea Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 hello my heart dog, bella, came from dubious beginnings and we've done a whole helluva lot to keep her basically trained, well behaved and certainly well socialised --- she really is a good dog, responds very well to all commands and also to some accidental training that has over time become obvious... bella turned 2 beginning of july... last weekend, as we usually do, we're at the small dog park [as opposed to a small park for dogs] and there was a 5-mo oodle [for want of a better term]. it was quite a nice lil dog and he started playing with bella, chasing her, which i know doesn't bother bella BUT bella took some kind of offence to this wee boy and she after several rounds rolled him over pinning him to the ground, using her 'gruff' play voice! i was more than a little startled but the owners of the pup didn't mind terribly and somewhere in my psyche i knew that bella was mostly behaving appropriately --- i remembered this puppy licence thing and i kept a close eye on bella as this pup continued to chase her! at some point shortly after and as part of the same circumstance, bella seemed to get jack of this pup; she didn't do anything that indicated a dangerous situation would ensue but the came together in one spot and she did this quick flicking of her open jaw, not connecting at all and most certainly not biting, to the side of this pup's head using a loud and quite a gruff vocal --- this was in open space so not up against anything... we, together with the owners were supervising and they said they were not concerned and happy that there was an older dog teaching it to behave --- i guess i felt concerned because this was certainly out of bella's character! at least i hadn't seen her act in such a way... i'm at loggerheads --- bella had no difficulty with any of the other dogs at the park that day and no other dog 'dogged' her in the same manner! i'd like to think that puppy was using his puppy licence and bella was effectively teaching him how to behave! i'm really not sure --- i became a first time dog owner in sept 08 so in your experience do you think bella was reacting to inappropriate puppy behaviour? i gratefully appreciate any input Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Sounds like perfectly normal dog behaviour. Adults are entitled to reprimand puppies and teach them manners. Several of mine have held a puppy down by the throat, sounding like they are going to kill them, when the puppy has stepped over the line of good manners, but they never, ever actually do any damage. This is usually something that happens after they have put up with a boisterous puppy for quite a long time, before deciding that the puppy licence has expired. It is only a problem if they actually injure a puppy. I have zero tolerance for any adult dog that intentionally injures a puppy. It is not normal behaviour and should never happen. Any dog that launches an unprovoked attack on a puppy and injures it, has no place in society. I have seen it happen at shows and cannot believe that breeders still contemplate breeding from a dog that acts this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruffy n Flea Posted August 13, 2010 Author Share Posted August 13, 2010 k, thanks *breathes* i'm more that a little sure that all is okay but receiving affirmation certainly makes me feel a lot better her adult behaviour startled me, given that she's still my baby girl... many thanks for your reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 i think she was just showing the puppy her boundaries. she didnt hurt the puppy, she just told him to back off...perfectly normal imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruffy n Flea Posted August 13, 2010 Author Share Posted August 13, 2010 thanks jb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruffy n Flea Posted August 13, 2010 Author Share Posted August 13, 2010 k look, is that behaviour displaying the possibility of the onset of aggression!?!? there's been a few threads lately; dog parks, walking etc --- could her behaviour escalate!?? she's never, and i mean NEVER shown aggression but this episode concerns me because of the other stuff that i've read... i *feel* that yes, she was simply teaching the pup boundaries, but can that behaviour become something more sinister? srsly, we're really responsible dog owners, caring about their survival in our hands --- i would die if i did anything wrong by my flufflies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 (edited) k look, is that behaviour displaying the possibility of the onset of aggression!?!?there's been a few threads lately; dog parks, walking etc --- could her behaviour escalate!?? she's never, and i mean NEVER shown aggression but this episode concerns me because of the other stuff that i've read... i *feel* that yes, she was simply teaching the pup boundaries, but can that behaviour become something more sinister? srsly, we're really responsible dog owners, caring about their survival in our hands --- i would die if i did anything wrong by my flufflies i think it is really normal. she could have bit and damaged the pup and that would have been a bit too aggressive for my liking. i honestly think she was doing her job as an older dog telling off a pup in the right way. she was saying to the pup "ok i have let you play for a while and i told you to calm down before and you didnt so now i have to tell you off a bit stronger so you get the message, now leave me alone" i suppose if the puppy didnt leave her alone and you let the puppy continue to harass her and she felt that you werent controling the situation then she may get more aggressive. i usually make sure that if puppies (or older dogs) are a bit too stoopid to get the doggy language that i step in and take my dog away from them as i dont want her to be frustrated and potentially aggressive Edited August 13, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9angel Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 (edited) All my older dogs do it with the youngens. They dont hurt them. I seriously dont think you have anything to worry about. My Old girl Gyps is the funniest, she displays her fangs (I used to call her the funnel web), will let out a growl and the younger dog knows instinctively not to bother her. (and she'd never hurt a fly) We have Luki here and he is going on 8 mths and going through the stage of just wanting to play, play and play she lets him know when she has had enough as do all the others, Jasmine, Jay Jay, Blacky - they pretty much well all do it. It's just their way of teaching him to behave I guess. So although you might think it looked/sounded bad, what your girl was most likely doing was telling this little dog she'd had enough of the silly bugger games. ETA: I have several dogs here, 11 atm - ranging in ages from 12 wks to 11 years and see this kind of behavior on a daily basis. There are never any fights and no one ever gets hurt - Edited August 13, 2010 by k9angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfthewords Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 People throw around the word "aggression" too much. A dog who growls or snaps is not truly aggressive. In regards to your dog, 100% normal behaviour, especially given that the other dog was a) much younger and b) boisterous. Carl is the most social and tolerant dog I know, but even he, at his wit's end, will growl at an excitable pup/dog. He follows through by either briefly chasing (I'm talking a few steps) or mouthing the scruff of the neck. Simply doggy-language for putting them in their place. A pup must learn these things or it will become one of those adults that bounces all over smaller dogs, and will end up being bitten or attacked because it doesn't know when to lay off. One of my Min Pins harasses Carl when we go for walks; she growls and chases him, mouthes at his muzzle but he eventually tells her to bugger off, and she does. It's a daily occurrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 You would have a heart attack if you saw/heard our pack playing lots of body slams/snaps/scruffings/nips ..... all ok tho - just different ages & things without seeing your dog it is all guessing - but it does sound normal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 All very normal and the pup that she was "teaching" will be a better dog because of the experience. Souff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarope Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 If you saw my three playing, you'd think it was a big dog fight. Your dog sounds normal to me, it's just like us if someone is consistently in your face you would do the same. I was at the vets with my Rottie who is very gentle, some fool with no dog sence comes in and lets their dog (which was smaller) run over straight into my girl's face. My girl growled and snapped at this dog, buy did not bite and the owner gave me a dirty look. :D :D The same thing happened on another occasion with one of my GSD's, so it's not the dog that's the problem it's always the owner. Off lead parks can be a dangerous place, as it's not your dog you have to worry about and I would never take mine to one as it's not worth the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowenhart Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 In this situation I would have stepped in if the pup didn't heed the initial warning. While I let my older dogs sort out the younger ones in my household, you can get in trouble if other people at a public park don't understand doggy languate. Obviously the owners of the pup did understand that puppies need doggy discipline. Older dogs will normally give a number of warnings to puppies, they escalate if the puppy ignores them. Air snaps, growls and the showing of teeth are all normal "back off" language that the pup has to learn and NOT aggression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirty Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 That sounds perfectly normal to me. My two older dogs are very different in the way the deal with young, annoying dogs. Maisie will just ignore it and tolerate it, and as a result, other dogs tend to target her and pick on her. Champa however, does not take crap. If a young pup jumps on him or annoys him, he snaps at it. Not in an aggressive way, but enough to tell the pup that behaviour is not on. The pups learn quick smart that he won't tolerate it and they leave him alone, or submit to him. Pinning, growling, air snapping is all normal behaviour and not aggressive. If Bella had turned around and attacked the pup, that would be different. All she did was tell the pup to pull its head in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Agree with what others have said. I won't take my boy to dog parks because he won't tolerate crap from other annoying dogs and tells them off. He has never hurt another dog and has never initiated anything, but other owners don't see it that way - their 'playful' dog that has just jumped all over my boy is the one that is on its back. Easier just to not put him in that situation. We have just introduced a puppy to our house. CK behaves exactly the same way with her - only she gets a little more latitude than an unknown dog. If she over steps the mark she is walloped and knows not to do it again. BUT if anyone or anything looks like it is a threat to 'his' puppy, look out. All part of the circle of life I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 A snap that makes no contact is like you yelling at someone. Can it escalate? Yes. If you are so peeved you yell at someone, and then they continue to annoy you, you can only take so much. Sooner or later you will yell louder, or you'll swear at them, or grab them and hold them while you tell them off. That doesn't necessarily mean you're the one in the wrong because you were provoked, but it's not the only way to deal with someone who is annoying you, and it's stressful to be that p***ed off with someone. I try to manage my dogs' interactions with other dogs so that they don't feel they need to escalate. It is a balance for me. On the one hand I want them to be able to look after themselves and be confident with other dogs, but on the other hand, I don't want them to use aggressive methods to look after themselves. So I monitor interactions and if non-aggressive means are not working for my dogs and they are becoming annoyed or distressed I would remove them from the situation before they try something more aggressive. I would rather they have success with non-aggressive behaviour than aggressive behaviour. So what I'm trying to say is that it is normal, but not necessarily desirable. I don't think we should feel that because it's normal we should stand back and let it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Sounds to me like she was just putting pup back in his place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruffy n Flea Posted August 15, 2010 Author Share Posted August 15, 2010 thank you all for your responses --- i am grateful to hear that her behaviour seemed appropriate for the circumstances as i said the owners of the pup were quite happy with bella's reaction [which gives me the impression that they've done some research into dog ownership] but as someone posted above, leaving bella to her own devices may indicate to her that she has to make her own decisions about these things and that would be a bad thing... being a first time dog owner [and now also with a 2nd dog] i have found DOL members to be invaluable with their wealth of experience and it seems that every day i learn something more --- today, reading your replies there were some other hints and remarks that i picked up in several posts and so to avoid having my dog feel she is alone and unprotected during those occasions, i now most certainly will step in and distract her and hopefully the offending [that may be a poor choice of word] dog and that too may benefit the other dog too... thank you all again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 15, 2010 Share Posted August 15, 2010 will step in and distract her and hopefully the offending [that may be a poor choice of word] dog and that too may benefit the other dog too... ok.... but I have a query here- if we distract dogs when we see they are about to snap or whatever- does this then mean that issues are unresolved? The message doesn't get thru to the other dog, and the relationship is still unsure? I was just thinking pup is being a pain, and a pain... dog gets fed up , and is about to let pup know. Observant owner sees what is happening-- steps in .. dogs separate, distracted. Does pup then see another opportunity to be a pain again and take it, seeing as how he was not disciplined the first time...? (thanks the gods yet again that she does not live in a city and have to cope with all these modern day problems!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted August 15, 2010 Share Posted August 15, 2010 will step in and distract her and hopefully the offending [that may be a poor choice of word] dog and that too may benefit the other dog too... ok.... but I have a query here- if we distract dogs when we see they are about to snap or whatever- does this then mean that issues are unresolved? The message doesn't get thru to the other dog, and the relationship is still unsure? I was just thinking pup is being a pain, and a pain... dog gets fed up , and is about to let pup know. Observant owner sees what is happening-- steps in .. dogs separate, distracted. Does pup then see another opportunity to be a pain again and take it, seeing as how he was not disciplined the first time...? (thanks the gods yet again that she does not live in a city and have to cope with all these modern day problems!!) i understand what you are saying. for me its my dog is the priority and if i thought she was getting too annoyed i would distract her and move away from the pup and if the pup doesnt get it then that is for their owner to manage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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