A Good Enough Reason Not To Feed Dogs A Commercial Diet ?

[OSoSwift]

Moselle

Without Cortisone my dog would be in agony. He has had it in the past for skin issues which we did all the testing for, injection etc. He is allergic to pretty much all the trees we have, the grass, many of the weeds and many many others things.

He also now has spinal arthriitis and nerve damage. He has had a good quality of life due to cortisone. I want to make his time here as pleasant as possible, if to do it I have to give him cortisone and he dies a few years earlier because of it - so be it. I would not keep him here with no cortisone and ripping his skin off, bleeding and screaming from spinal pain just to have him a few years longer.

I think your assumptions are extremely arrogant and closed minded.

Walk a mile in my shoes then think again - I think you may find your views may change slightly.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Rommi n Lewis

[Staranais]

Sometimes the underlying issue is a genetic predisposition to allergies and immune problems. This underlying issue could possibly be cured in the long term (by not breeding these dogs), but cannot be cured in the short term (within the lifetime of these dogs). In the short term, our goal is to make these dogs more comfortable. Sometimes, this includes using cortisone.

It's rather like hip dysplasia. Owners can exacerbate hip issues by keeping their pup overweight or feeding it improperly. But at the end of the day, sometimes the dog is just be predisposed to crappy hips, no matter what the owner does. All we can do is keep the affected dog as comfortable as possible & try to breed away from the problem.

[Dame Aussie]

Are cortisone based drugs a "definite no no"? That depends what they're being used for!

It's all very well to decide that you would never use cortisone, until you have a dog that's in misery & steroids are the only thing that helps.

Some dogs have skin issues even with minimal vaccination, no drugs, and a "pure" (whatever that means) diet. It's not as simple as saying that if only the owner can get it right, the dog's skin will be fixed. Some owners do a great job on diet and lifestyle, and their dogs still need drugs to help their skin. Genetics plays a huge role in allergies and immune based skin disease.

+1

Orbit has only ever had his puppy vaccines and minimal flea treatments etc and is on a raw diet. Yet he's still very allergic. Yes, he gets cortisone and other immune drugs, but only because they are the only thing that bring him relief. To say this is an absolute 'no no'?! How can you say this about a drug which provides comfort and quality of life for an animal?

The RAW vs Kibble will always be an ongoing argument, but I think the subject is like religion - do your own research and make your own decision, but don't preach to other people.

Not all dogs will do well on raw. Those who improved on raw were not 'cured' of their allergy, but merely relieved of their symptoms when the culprit allergen was no longer being fed in the dry food, eg a grain, storage mites etc.

I know of one particular dog who was fed a raw diet all her life, only puppy vacc'd, never given oral treatments/chemicals/drugs, yet died at 2yo from cancer. My own family Golden Retriever was fed supermarket dry most of her life, had cortisone for flea allergy dermatitis here and there, vaccinated at times yet lived till till she was 16yo and was only pts because of joint disease.

Dogs are all different - like people. Their digestive systems function the same but are not all the same, as with their bodies. If one dog thrives being fed a raw diet, then that's great, but I don't think it's fair to tell people something what they're doing is 'not the best' for their dog.

+2

If the dog needs Cortisone to live then the dog gets Cortisone!

Not all dogs do well on a raw or BARF diet either. We fed our Boxer Chum all his life and he lived to 12.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Moselle

Without Cortisone my dog would be in agony. He has had it in the past for skin issues which we did all the testing for, injection etc. He is allergic to pretty much all the trees we have, the grass, many of the weeds and many many others things.

He also now has spinal arthriitis and nerve damage. He has had a good quality of life due to cortisone. I want to make his time here as pleasant as possible, if to do it I have to give him cortisone and he dies a few years earlier because of it - so be it. I would not keep him here with no cortisone and ripping his skin off, bleeding and screaming from spinal pain just to have him a few years longer.

I think your assumptions are extremely arrogant and closed minded.

Walk a mile in my shoes then think again - I think you may find your views may change slightly.

i am not sure this would happen

i agree, my old dog needed cortisone or pts i chose cortisone and she got quite a few more as pain free as possible years

[Moselle]

Geeze Moselle - did i actually read that you suggested those of us who don't have wads of money to throw around should own only a goldfish??

ETA - one of my guys is allergic to something in which he comes in contact to and or eats, we've changed diets, got him off certain meats - i've had him on Polaramine (and not it doesn't make him drowsy...which is a pity!) on a semi regular basis, i've changed his diet again - oddly enough right at the moment he is getting less raw then usual and an average kibble - but he is looking better then he has in a long time - perhaps it's just the change in season Normally they'd have nights when they gets bones, and other nights when they get kibble - or a bit of both.

The majority of people don't have wads of cash to throw around; I was more concerned with people that can only afford the very bare mininal of vet. care; having said that, there are people that are loaded with money and don't want to spend it.

Have you figured what it is that one of your guys is actually allergic to? is it contact allergy or is it related to food?

[stormie]

Moselle - here is one of Orbit's allergy results for you... The food component of these blood tests should be mostly ignored, however the chicken, fish and duck are true, based on food elimination. Brewers yeast was also something I thought made him worse too as does oatmeal, both ingested and used topically.

Many very atopic dogs have multiple problems, ie environmental as well as food. Food allergies alone make up a very small percentage of allergic dogs.

This test was done over 2 years ago now, so it's quite likely that if we ran them again, he'd have more positives than back then.

[aussielover]

Poor Orbit and all the other doggies suffering from severe allergy

I think raw has its benefits as does commercial dog food. For example, i wouldn't feed Mindy a raw diet (not that i have a choice) because she will break big chunks off bones and swallow them. every time I have tried a bone with her, she has vomited up a big piece of bone a few hrs later. It is lucky there was no obstruction, and i don't want to push my luck, especially with her not actually being my dog! However, i feel my previous dogs would have done well on a raw diet had i known about them at the time.

[PeiPei]

Reading Dr Billinghurst books have changed both mine and my dogs life's.

My dogs health encouraged me to become more educated about animal nutrition, and it has ended up with me becoming a fully qualified small animal nutritionist.

My year long course taught me so much about dogs and their correct nutrition requirements.

Having sold commercial dog food for a few years, I had been brainwashed about how good this 'processed crap in a bag' really was. I was very skeptical about the whole natural dog diet info at first.

Let me just say that until you have read Dr Billinghursts books and have fully committed to the natural way of feeding, then don't knock it.

This diet makes so much sense and most of all it works!!

I own Shar Pei and found that my girls were having a lot of skin problems. I didn't want to keep medicating them and the 'special really expensive' vet food just wasn't the answer.

I have now had all my dogs on Barf and the core ingredients for over four years and am amazed at the difference.

Other Shar Pei owners ask me what my secret is to keeping my girls looking and being so healthy, I tell them BARF, and recommend that they read Dr Billinghursts books.

I often have people say that it doesn't matter how much they fed their dogs, they just cant keep the weight on them. Solution = BARF

I have had many rescue dogs come to me in very poor condition and within a few weeks of eating BARF the difference is amazing.

Probably the best thing about BARF is that because the food is so nutritious the body uses up most it, which means LESS DOG POO to pick up!!

[PeiPei]

Poor Orbit and all the other doggies suffering from severe allergy

I think raw has its benefits as does commercial dog food. For example, i wouldn't feed Mindy a raw diet (not that i have a choice) because she will break big chunks off bones and swallow them. every time I have tried a bone with her, she has vomited up a big piece of bone a few hrs later. It is lucky there was no obstruction, and i don't want to push my luck, especially with her not actually being my dog! However, i feel my previous dogs would have done well on a raw diet had i known about them at the time.

Have you tried grinding up the meaty bones first? That way there wont be big chunks of bone to swallow.

For smaller dogs chicken necks or wings are fantastic. If your dog doesn't chew them properly try grinding them up too.

I always recommend that when feeding bones that the caregivers are present, just incase. Better safe than sorry.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i just want to say again that i know of dogs that vomit up and raw meat and bones. barf is not the answer for all dogs

[PeiPei]

[

Have you tried to get to the underlying problem? did you actually find out what was causing the allergies in the first place?

I must say that I am often disturbed when people say that they can only afford minimal financial care for a dog and don't have the time that a dog requires. In that case, maybe goldfish would be a cheaper option. I do appreciate it that not everyone is made of money but if people cannot afford even minimal veterinary care then I think they should not consider owning a dog/cat/horse....

I think if you read orbit other post's you would be well aware that the dog has had all the care under world given & vet treatment BUT there comes a time where you can pay $1000 each year with no result from vet /holistic etc etc.

People then go down the path of what best maintains that animal condition at it's worst time.

We see people who bring there dogs here who have spent a fortune on there dogs care with no end result except simply being ask to put there hands in there pocket & spend more & more.

I too am not a believer of "easy option " of pills but also appreciate for some dogs it is a must & like the food debate the same applies .

If these people choice to neglect the meds that brought/bring comfort to there animals after many avenues had failed then they would be accused of not given the right care.

If the answer was so simple there would't be a need for pills & hands in the pocket

Thank you showdog

Moselle, I take extreme offence to you inferring that by giving my dog cortisone for relief, I am taking a short cut.

Orbit was itchy from the day he came home to me at 10wks of age. I tried diet changes, supplements, oils, shampoos, homeopathics, herbs, lotions, detox's etc. I consulted with Dermatologists to eliminate the possibility of scabies, FAD, fungal and bacterial infections.

I have done thyroid testing and skin biopsies. I had two separate allergy blood tests done, because intra dermal tests were not possible for us because of the withholding period required.

I have a list of everything in the environment he is allergic to. I have done desensitising injections.

I feed him raw and struggle at times to find novel protein sources so I can repeat food elimination diets with him.

He cannot have contact with grass or plants without becoming extremely itchy hours later. I have to put towels down on the back lawn for him to lay on when he eats his bones.

He is still itchy. And with most atopic dogs, he will get worse as he gets older. He is itchy all the time. And on top of being chronically itchy, he then has the 'bad itchies' after laying on grass, carpet, brushing past plants etc.

Perhaps you'd like to spend some time with a dog as allergic as mine and tell me how you'd cope? After a roll in the grass, that night, he doesn't sleep. He's too itchy to sleep. If you pat him or touch him, his skin quivers because it's so itchy. If he makes it to sleep, he wakes up as soon as he moves, because the motion of his skin moving makes him itchy. He chews himself till he bleeds.

So yes, I give him cortisone because it takes away his misery. I also give him cyclosporin, at $550 for a 100ml, which lasts a dog his size about 2 months.

So please, don't tell me I'm taking a short cut because I have spent the last 3 years living and breathing atopy and spending a good part of every single day, doing what I can to relieve his itching as best I can, to try and keep his medication rates down.

Poor Orbit. Have you tried acupuncture? This has worked wonders for my Shar Pei and for a friends Lab.

Her Lab Jordy sounds very much like Orbit, she tried everything (even turned poor meat loving Jordy Vegetarian!)

Acupuncture has almost cured him and now he is able enjoy a far happier and scratch free life.

Hope you and poor Orbit can find some relief soon.

[aussielover]

Poor Orbit and all the other doggies suffering from severe allergy

I think raw has its benefits as does commercial dog food. For example, i wouldn't feed Mindy a raw diet (not that i have a choice) because she will break big chunks off bones and swallow them. every time I have tried a bone with her, she has vomited up a big piece of bone a few hrs later. It is lucky there was no obstruction, and i don't want to push my luck, especially with her not actually being my dog! However, i feel my previous dogs would have done well on a raw diet had i known about them at the time.

Have you tried grinding up the meaty bones first? That way there wont be big chunks of bone to swallow.

For smaller dogs chicken necks or wings are fantastic. If your dog doesn't chew them properly try grinding them up too.

I always recommend that when feeding bones that the caregivers are present, just incase. Better safe than sorry.

No i haven't, how do you do that or do you have to ask the butcher to do it?

I always supervise bone eating, but because she bites and swallows so quickly it is pretty hard to catch her in the act!

she is a lab so chicken necks and wings are not suitable.

[PeiPei]

Poor Orbit and all the other doggies suffering from severe allergy

I think raw has its benefits as does commercial dog food. For example, i wouldn't feed Mindy a raw diet (not that i have a choice) because she will break big chunks off bones and swallow them. every time I have tried a bone with her, she has vomited up a big piece of bone a few hrs later. It is lucky there was no obstruction, and i don't want to push my luck, especially with her not actually being my dog! However, i feel my previous dogs would have done well on a raw diet had i known about them at the time.

Have you tried grinding up the meaty bones first? That way there wont be big chunks of bone to swallow.

For smaller dogs chicken necks or wings are fantastic. If your dog doesn't chew them properly try grinding them up too.

I always recommend that when feeding bones that the caregivers are present, just incase. Better safe than sorry.

No i haven't, how do you do that or do you have to ask the butcher to do it?

I always supervise bone eating, but because she bites and swallows so quickly it is pretty hard to catch her in the act!

she is a lab so chicken necks and wings are not suitable.

You can buy a manual meat grinder or a fancy electric one from most cooking utensil shops. I highly recommend these to owners who are introducing or have issues feeding bones. By grinding up the bones first you ensure that there is not chunks to cause issues while ensuring that they still benefit from eating raw meaty bones.

Being a lab shouldn't make any difference to eating chicken wings or necks, however if she inhales her food like some Labs do, for piece of mind grind them well first.

I have all my small & large dogs on chicken necks & wings and personally have never had any issues.

[Dogsfevr]

Reading Dr Billinghurst books have changed both mine and my dogs life's.

My dogs health encouraged me to become more educated about animal nutrition, and it has ended up with me becoming a fully qualified small animal nutritionist.

My year long course taught me so much about dogs and their correct nutrition requirements.

Having sold commercial dog food for a few years, I had been brainwashed about how good this 'processed crap in a bag' really was. I was very skeptical about the whole natural dog diet info at first.

Let me just say that until you have read Dr Billinghursts books and have fully committed to the natural way of feeding, then don't knock it.

Pei pei i would also hope you learnt enough to also realize that BARF isn't the bee all end all too.

Education works both ways & it isn't about brainwashing but appreciating that one size doesn't fit all.

Why would someone feed BAR or similiar if it doesn't work??

Not sure if you have been to a dog show & what you think of the dogs there all feed that crap food??

Mine are feed crap food but i am more than happy with there health,coat condition & longevity :D

Edited August 15, 2010 by showdog

[Gayle.]

i just want to say again that i know of dogs that vomit up and raw meat and bones. barf is not the answer for all dogs

Yes, that's Dusty. She was fed raw for 2 years, then all of a sudden, just started bringing it straight back up. No matter what the meat was....lamb, beef, chcken, roo. All got a return journey about 10 minutes after she ate it.

Now she is on kibble, she has never looked better. Benson's flaky skin has cleared up and his harsh, dry coat has gone and both dogs have soft, shiny coats that look fabulous.

I would love to be able to feed a raw diet, but it just doesn't suit my dogs.

[Kayne's Mum]

Sorry - i tried barf/raw on my two GSD's - and i will never ever ever do it again - it proved to be very expensive as i was having to feed huge amounts of food to keep any kind of weight on them - in the end we were going through several kgs each per day and the dogs were nearly skin and bone. If it wasn't for the fact i was watching them i would have thought something was stealing their food. Certain kibble also does the same for them - in that they have to eat huge amounts to keep any kind of condition.

They are now on a mix of certain kibbles and butcher bones, eggs, anything else i come across that i think they will like, or that i want to try them on. One is in perfect condition (tho i have to shed his little extra winter weight), the other is recovering from allergies - but he is now recovering and looking better every week.

I used to have in my sig something along the lines of "The best food for your dog is what your dog does best on - packaged or unpackaged". Perhaps i need to put that back in my sig.

yes you do. I totally agree with that statement.

My gsd cannot eat raw and he cannot eat beef at all. So what would one suggest then - that I turn him into a vegan?

He is on a mix or royal Canin, cooked human grade poultry and lamb plus Natues Gift and he is looking great.

[Sheridan]

IMO cortisone is a NO NO.

Yeah and without cortisone my dog would have been utterly miserable and I would have had to have him put to sleep at 9 months of age as his quality of life would have been crap. At least cortisone let him have some semblance of normality during his time here.

Quite frankly, your suggestion that people who use cortisone as a 'short cut' is offensive. Those people who do use it know that like any drug, cortisone has its good and bad sides and have to make that informed decision.

I had a kerry that had an autoimmune disease that affected his joints. Cortisone enabled him to move. There was no cure for the autoimmune disease, no possible treatment for the underlying cause, so I wonder how that one would have been sorted out?

Edited August 15, 2010 by Sheridan

[Danois]

That was our issue too Sheriden - immune mediated disease affecting the joints.

[Staranais]

My dogs health encouraged me to become more educated about animal nutrition, and it has ended up with me becoming a fully qualified small animal nutritionist.

My year long course taught me so much about dogs and their correct nutrition requirements.

What course is this, Peipei? Just asking since the only qualified small animal nutritionists I know are vets with postgraduate qualifications, but that doesn't sound like what you did. Thanks.

[KitKat]

Have you figured what it is that one of your guys is actually allergic to? is it contact allergy or is it related to food?

My vet is suggesting that it is a contact allergy to grass (and perhaps something in the dirt here) - we thought it might have been beef at once stage but ruled that out. So it seems both myself and one of my dogs is allergic to our grass.