Getting Compliance Without A Reward On Offer?

[Lucy's mama]

Sorry, could someone please explain to me again how to get a dog to do as it's told even when there is no treat or reward around? Rewarding sporadically doesn't help because he still needs to see a reward might be available to actually do anything, even if that reward is just that the door will be opened for him. What about when he doesn't want something but I still need him to sit or stay or drop?

[Jacquiboss&scoop]

I use a treat or pay off every time while the behaviour is starting that I want , I also go overboard silly with the good dog affect

As I reduce the amount of treats I do two things

the overboard silly stays

They have to do a consecutive selection of commands to get a reward ( toy treat ) that they often dont know I have ( is in a bag at the side of the training area or on a bench at home ) and I jackpot , they do not know when I will jackpot

In this way they learn that the chance of reward is very high , but there is no way of knowing when or what it might be jackpots however are very desirable

start with him knowing that the treat is there and try to use something he likes but you can nibble to , with Keisha I had to have cheese around somewhere for a while , If she did what I wanted she got the cheese , if she didnt I took out and ate the cheese myself LOL

It did work because she now thinks that I always have something she could miss out on

[JulesP]

Depends on your training philosophy If I tell mine to do something that I know they understand and they decide not to do it then I physically put them in the position. I usually have to only do this once. I never let my dogs not do something I tell them. This is for stuff around the house.

In obedience training they rarely don't do what I ask. Probably because of how strict I am at home.

I am careful about what I ask too. They hate baths and go running when they see me getting the bath ready. So I don't call them I go find them. I would be careful about a stay command too. Don't want that being devalued.

[persephone]

No treats used here in training - dogs do it, they get patted and praised Simple. They have never expected anything else , so it works. because they do not get chatted to/played with all day, any praise etc is of value to them... so they enjoy earning it

I also agree with not calling a dog and then doing something unpleasant - calling a dog to you should always be associated with something happy :D

I see compliance in the face of distraction/unwillingness is kinda like being in the army.... soldiers are continually drilled in a behaviour , so it become AUTOMATIC ... they hear/see a cue, and the behaviour just happens , regardless of what is going on around them.

practice to the 'nth' degree :D

[Aussienot]

As soon as possible with training, I try to get the treats out of my hand and off my body. So I will put the treats elsewhere, and after the dog does something treatworthy we run together to get the treat. I make going to get the treat as rewarding as the treat. Of couse, you have to make sure the dog can't get into the treats without you. No self-rewarding.

Move around where you put the treat container, too, so the dog does not come to expect them to be in a certain place.

That way, the dog thinks a treat may be available, even if he can't immediately see or smell it.

[Luke GSP]

Sorry, could someone please explain to me again how to get a dog to do as it's told even when there is no treat or reward around? Rewarding sporadically doesn't help because he still needs to see a reward might be available to actually do anything, even if that reward is just that the door will be opened for him. What about when he doesn't want something but I still need him to sit or stay or drop?

-R of some form would be one option such as forced retrieve training a gundog as an example.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Luke GSP

[Kavik]

As soon as possible with training, I try to get the treats out of my hand and off my body. So I will put the treats elsewhere, and after the dog does something treatworthy we run together to get the treat. I make going to get the treat as rewarding as the treat. Of couse, you have to make sure the dog can't get into the treats without you. No self-rewarding.

Move around where you put the treat container, too, so the dog does not come to expect them to be in a certain place.

That way, the dog thinks a treat may be available, even if he can't immediately see or smell it.

This is a good idea

you could start with using a treat bag/container instead of having the treat in your hand, then move the treats further away.

[Lucy's mama]

As soon as possible with training, I try to get the treats out of my hand and off my body. So I will put the treats elsewhere, and after the dog does something treatworthy we run together to get the treat. I make going to get the treat as rewarding as the treat. Of couse, you have to make sure the dog can't get into the treats without you. No self-rewarding.

Move around where you put the treat container, too, so the dog does not come to expect them to be in a certain place.

That way, the dog thinks a treat may be available, even if he can't immediately see or smell it.

I love this idea! Banjo loves running with me so it will be a great reward to him. Just have to get over the first hurdle of getting him to do something reward worthy!

[RubyStar]

As soon as possible with training, I try to get the treats out of my hand and off my body. So I will put the treats elsewhere, and after the dog does something treatworthy we run together to get the treat. I make going to get the treat as rewarding as the treat. Of couse, you have to make sure the dog can't get into the treats without you. No self-rewarding.

Move around where you put the treat container, too, so the dog does not come to expect them to be in a certain place.

That way, the dog thinks a treat may be available, even if he can't immediately see or smell it.

I love this idea! Banjo loves running with me so it will be a great reward to him. Just have to get over the first hurdle of getting him to do something reward worthy!

Don't ask him for anything too advanced in the early stages of transferring the treats off your body. Ask for something simple like a "sit", then when he does it, make a huge fuss of what a good boy he is and run off with him to find him his treat. Gradually build it up asking for a few behaviours or more advanced ones before treating.

[corvus]

Conditioning. If they have been rewarded often enough (with a variety of things in a variety of situations) it doesn't occur to them that they may not be rewarded. You just have to make sure the presence of food doesn't predict whether they will be rewarded or not. I carry treats with me all the time, but that doesn't mean they stop performing if I leave them at home. They are so used to being rewarded that the presence of treats doesn't factor in at all.

[szafir]

depending on your training philosophy - there is always the element of compulsion. Three phases in a dog learning a new command:

1. Teaching - dog learns what the command means (reward only)

2. Training - dog learns what happens once it knows the command, and decides to ignore you (receives a correction)

3. Distraction - dog learns that it must obey the command in every environment.

With this approach there is a balance of reinforcement and correction. Corrections should only be used once the dog completely understands the given command.

[corvus]

I don't correct my dogs if they don't comply. The consequence if they don't is they don't get the good stuff I have. I don't like to assume they know something, because I don't think that it is a safe assumption. Just because they will do it at home doesn't mean it is a known behaviour when I ask them to do it at the dog park, for example. There are a whole lot of other cues they may be depending on that have changed, leaving them unsure of themselves. They may choose not to act because they are not sure of how they should act. I don't want to punish them for my misjudgements. They have to learn that "sit" at home is the same as "sit" at the park and "sit" at the vets and "sit" at the pet store and so on and so on.

[Staranais]

There's lots of ways to skin a cat, and I think it depends on what your final goal is, as well as your training philosophy. We use a combination of several methods in this thread, depending on what behaviours/situations we're working on. There's no one right answer.

[poodlefan]

If your dog won't obey a cue without seeing food, then I'd say you've got a tainted cue and never successfully faded the lure.

Retrain with a new word and fade that lure as soon as you get reliable compliance to a verbal cue. Then randomise the reward schedule.