Please I Need Some Help

[Adza]

I'd like to add my experience, I remember as a kid, probably 5-6 years old, I was at a dog training session with my parents, and stupidly parents were told by the trainer his dog is very calm and I can go up to it. A German Shepherd. So I did, and I must of scared him or something, and got bitten on the nose (he was tied up). No damage just punctures.

Everyone went mental and the trainer went and bashed his dog, probably almost to death (so my father says). I feel terrible because thinking back I may have scared the dog in some way without completely remembering and have no blame to the dog. I am sure the owner PTS after that, but I don't think it deserved that.

I just think kids should be carefully supervised near dogs or at least taught to not run up to dogs with sudden movements as well, unless growing up with the dog is usually different. I know I wouldn't want my kids just going up to any dog and not knowing if the dogs are fearful or protective or hurt them in some way and they turn. That's just me.

I'm not condoning attacks but I think should be both ways.

That to say, I don't know how it feels to have a dog thats potentially aggressive towards others. I would seek dog behaviourist first.

[Joel]

I'd like to add my experience, I remember as a kid, probably 5-6 years old, I was at a dog training session with my parents, and stupidly parents were told by the trainer his dog is very calm and I can go up to it. A German Shepherd. So I did, and I must of scared him or something, and got bitten on the nose (he was tied up). No damage just punctures.

Everyone went mental and the trainer went and bashed his dog, probably almost to death (so my father says). I feel terrible because thinking back I may have scared the dog in some way without completely remembering and have no blame to the dog. I am sure the owner PTS after that, but I don't think it deserved that.

I just think kids should be carefully supervised near dogs or at least taught to not run up to dogs with sudden movements as well, unless growing up with the dog is usually different. I know I wouldn't want my kids just going up to any dog and not knowing if the dogs are fearful or protective or hurt them in some way and they turn. That's just me.

I'm not condoning attacks but I think should be both ways.

That to say, I don't know how it feels to have a dog thats potentially aggressive towards others. I would seek dog behaviourist first.

+1

Thanks Aidan, thats the kinda advice I want! Until now I had never even heard of Google Scholar or Google Books, so it goes to show what I might have missed out on!

In regards to the alchoholism topic (very OT I know), I was under the impression that recent studies have suggested that it is linked to a gene influencing the likelihood of addiction? Either way, I'll definitely take your suggestions and research it all! Thanks! :D

[sas]

Sas, I probably should have worded it better, but I still believe that a dogs behavior is MOSTLY determined by its environment. Sure, breeding etc comes in to it, but there are plenty of examples of 'poorly bred' dogs that have even had poor environments that get rehomed into great environments and end up fantastic. With that said, there are also plenty of examples of excellently bred dogs that end up in a poor environment that end up being a nightmare.

Anyway, I would like to read up more about how genetics effects temperaments, so if you have any good links, post them

You can believe whatever you choose to but that doesn't mean it's factual, so I'd just ask you to keep that in mind when stating things on here as if they are fact.

Edited: Sure, look up Behavioural Science books, also books by Dr Temple Grandin are a great place to start.

Edited August 13, 2010 by sas

[ash&elar]

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So a dog that will chase down a child and kill it should be allowed to live because it isnt its fault that it is that way???? Any dog in my whole extended family would be pts if it so much as attempted to bite a child even if the child accidently stood on its tail and the dog snapped at the kid, a dog is aware of who it is biting/going to bite unless it was cornered and being threatend it should move away from a child, complain vocally but not bite, i do not believe the way a dog is has everything to do with the owner, some dogs are genetically predispositioned to bad temps, some dogs should be pts for the safety of others.

to the OP i agree that a behavourist is needed, but if this dog has had a go at a child in the past it is something you will ALWAYS have to watch out for, is that something you are capable or even willing to do for the rest of this dogs life?

Are you kidding???

I agree the dog should not start viciously attacking the child or even draw blood, but you would PTS if it even snapped near a child who had injured it?

The OPs dog has not "chased down a child and killed it" so i don't even know why that was mentioned here...

I am pretty shocked at that too. If you stood on a dogs tail or hurt it ofcourse its going to react. Maybe not in the biting way but some dogs will. I would never consider putting a dog down due to something like that.

My dog was fear agressive. However not towards people but still the behaviourist worked wonders and I now have a well behaved dog and the past agressive ways are hardly seen if ever. I think the best thing is a behaviourist. I hope someone can recommend someone in WA for the OP

your choice not mine, your belief not mine.

[dee lee]

a dog should know its place in the heirarchy and snapping at a child shows it doesnt know that, this imo is a very dangerous situation.

Couldn't have hit the nail more on the head. What everyone seems to be missing here is that it is the owners responsibility to make sure that the dog knows that its place on the pack heirachy is at the bottom. The dog should not be expected to just assume that position on its own without any direction.

Ok, so what happens when, for whatever reason, an owner is unable to convey this to the dog?

Sure, there is an ideal and owners should teach their dog who is boss, but not everyone is up to the task.

When children are brought into the equation it is very difficult to change pack structure. The dynamics of a family are hugely influential- I know this from bitter experience.

I have no idea why my DA dog was the way she was, but I was unable to effectively change her behaviour despite extensive help from a behaviourist.

We just could not change our family dynamic and had to rely on management until that became unmanageable.

If she had've been HA, I would not have tried for as long, I would not have risked my family.

You can blame the owners for doing a bad job til the cows come home, the fact is that many owners may not be able to change this situation.

[Aidan]

In regards to the alchoholism topic (very OT I know), I was under the impression that recent studies have suggested that it is linked to a gene influencing the likelihood of addiction? Either way, I'll definitely take your suggestions and research it all! Thanks! :D

There are many alleles involved, and I suppose you could say that any one of them has an influence on the likelihood of addiction (the journalists certainly do!) If you study a population you will usually find that they have common alleles that are not common amongst other populations, but with behavioural genetics you will rarely find one allele that is exclusively found only in that population.

Schizophrenia is strongly heritable. Yet, find one identical (monozygotic) twin who suffers schizophrenia and their twin, who has identical genetics, is only about 50% likely to develop schizophrenia. Slightly more if raised in the same environment, slightly less if raised apart.

Dogs are usually fraternal (dizygotic) twins, raised in different environments. Find a dog who has what some would term "weak nerve" and you will usually find littermates who have similar temperaments.

My GSD is an anxious girl, and while I was always able to train her and manage her well, it wasn't until I started supplementing her diet with very small doses of tryptophan (a naturally occurring amino acid) that I was really able to get anywhere with her or make the training really stick. For that matter, if you feed virtually ANY dog a tryptophan deficient diet (say, one based on corn with not much else) they will become what we might call "weak nerved" soon enough. How much depends on their genetics, and very little on their environment.

Lots of factors.

One model of gene x environment interactions is known as the "diathesis stress model" (Kendler) and it makes a lot of sense and has a lot of data backing it up. It proposes that individuals have a threshold for developing disease or mental health issues, determined by their genes (diathesis). Once environment provides enough impetus ("stress") to cross this threshold, the problem occurs. So, give someone enough booze for long enough, and they will eventually cross a threshold and become dependent on alcohol. It also makes a lot of sense in dog behaviour, for e.g. my GSD only required a slight deficiency of tryptophan (the "stress") to cross that threshold, whereas my Golden could eat corn exclusively for a month and just end up with a bit of dandruff and maybe an ear infection.

[Joel]

You can believe whatever you choose to but that doesn't mean it's factual, so I'd just ask you to keep that in mind when stating things on here as if they are fact.

Edited: Sure, look up Behavioural Science books, also books by Dr Temple Grandin are a great place to start.

Thanks for the recommendations on books. Ill look in to it

I think its a bit harsh to single me out as one who is 'stating things on here as if they are fact' when this forum (this thread inclusive) is full of people doing the same thing and you do not direct your comment at them too - especially considering I have repeatedly said that what I have said is just that - my opinion, whereas others havent (although, this is a public forum, and unless anything is referenced, its all just opinions, but at least I went to the trouble of specifying it).

EDITED TO ADD:

Aidan, damn... you are my hero, lol.

I wish every post had that amount of researched information in it. Sounds to me like you definately know your stuff.

I have to admit, I had a lol moment when I read about how your golden would be able to eat just corn for a month and end up with just a bit of dandruff and perhaps an ear infection. for some reason i pictured it as a cartoon and it made it quite amusing

Ill search the Diathesis stress model too - sounds quite interesting!

Edited August 13, 2010 by Joel

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

In regards to the alchoholism topic (very OT I know), I was under the impression that recent studies have suggested that it is linked to a gene influencing the likelihood of addiction? Either way, I'll definitely take your suggestions and research it all! Thanks!

There are many alleles involved, and I suppose you could say that any one of them has an influence on the likelihood of addiction (the journalists certainly do!) If you study a population you will usually find that they have common alleles that are not common amongst other populations, but with behavioural genetics you will rarely find one allele that is exclusively found only in that population.

Schizophrenia is strongly heritable. Yet, find one identical (monozygotic) twin who suffers schizophrenia and their twin, who has identical genetics, is only about 50% likely to develop schizophrenia. Slightly more if raised in the same environment, slightly less if raised apart.

Dogs are usually fraternal (dizygotic) twins, raised in different environments. Find a dog who has what some would term "weak nerve" and you will usually find littermates who have similar temperaments.

My GSD is an anxious girl, and while I was always able to train her and manage her well, it wasn't until I started supplementing her diet with very small doses of tryptophan (a naturally occurring amino acid) that I was really able to get anywhere with her or make the training really stick. For that matter, if you feed virtually ANY dog a tryptophan deficient diet (say, one based on corn with not much else) they will become what we might call "weak nerved" soon enough. How much depends on their genetics, and very little on their environment.

Lots of factors.

One model of gene x environment interactions is known as the "diathesis stress model" (Kendler) and it makes a lot of sense and has a lot of data backing it up. It proposes that individuals have a threshold for developing disease or mental health issues, determined by their genes (diathesis). Once environment provides enough impetus ("stress") to cross this threshold, the problem occurs. So, give someone enough booze for long enough, and they will eventually cross a threshold and become dependent on alcohol. It also makes a lot of sense in dog behaviour, for e.g. my GSD only required a slight deficiency of tryptophan (the "stress") to cross that threshold, whereas my Golden could eat corn exclusively for a month and just end up with a bit of dandruff and maybe an ear infection.

however, it takes more thanjust being physically dependant on alcohol to make an alcoholic. some people can be dependant on alcohol as you have described then stop with no ill effects whatso ever. then there is another group who have a much more difficult time stopping alcohol and this is likely due to their predisposition to addictions which is possibly caused by genetics.

[raineth]

I really feel for you (Original Poster).

Sounds like a very stressful situation to be in.

I urge you (like others have) to find a behaviourist.

I also think its not right to say it's all your fault, and that you are responsible for your dog's aggression.

You have identified a problem and you are asking for advise to fix it, that says to me that you are being responsible.

Also I don't think it is accurate to say "well you wanted a mastiff, what did you expect" etc.

How do we know that this dog is not especially difficult and would be difficult for even a very experienced person?

If you read that mastiff thread in breeds 101. It doesn't really portray them as a dog that is quick to aggression. They are described as being very good with kids, tolerant, and understanding of their immense size.

[dancinbcs]

He seems fine with all the family (i have 3 young children and he will happily play with them ) and he's not food aggressive. He also seems to like other dogs.

One point many of you seem to have missed entirely is that this dog is fine with Chazey's children. He is guarding her against all strangers, both adult and children, but has not shown any tendency of aggression towards the family at all.

The dog is only just over 12 months and therefore hitting maturity and finding his place in the family pack. A dominant dog, especially a very large one, needs to be carefully shown where it should fit into that pack and getting it wrong leads to the situation that seems to be developing here. If this is the problem a behaviourist should be able to sort it out with the family so they all have more control over the dog and he won't feel the need to protect them so strongly. Go read "Think Dog" by John Fisher and see how people unknowingly create these problems all the time.

Other male dogs with female owners, just start this behaviour at about 12 months and experienced owners stop it before it escalates to a problem. I once had a BC that suddenly thought it would be a good idea to growl at any adult that approached me. He was fine with kids, obviously not seeing them as a threat to me. My friends helped me solve this by taking his lead from me if he growled at them so I could walk away and leave him with them. If I wasn't there he couldn't guard me and within about 2 weeks he worked out that if he growled at someone, I would give him to them and leave. That was not the outcome he had planned and the behaviour stopped immediately. I also gave him to friends to work in obedience commands until he was quite relaxed working for anyone that issued commands.

This approach though is NOT something I would recommend in this situation with a Mastiff that has a much stronger guard instinct than a BC and the fact that the situation has already escalated. Also my friends and I where all experienced dog trainers, unlike Chazey and any friends that may attempt to help her.

On the other hand the dog may just be very aggressive by nature and that would mean that he is truly too dangerous to have around. Deciding the true situation cannot be done over the internet. They need an expert to assess the dog and the family.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

He seems fine with all the family (i have 3 young children and he will happily play with them ) and he's not food aggressive. He also seems to like other dogs.

One point many of you seem to have missed entirely is that this dog is fine with Chazey's children. He is guarding her against all strangers, both adult and children, but has not shown any tendency of aggression towards the family at all.

The dog is only just over 12 months and therefore hitting maturity and finding his place in the family pack. A dominant dog, especially a very large one, needs to be carefully shown where it should fit into that pack and getting it wrong leads to the situation that seems to be developing here. If this is the problem a behaviourist should be able to sort it out with the family so they all have more control over the dog and he won't feel the need to protect them so strongly. Go read "Think Dog" by John Fisher and see how people unknowingly create these problems all the time.

Other male dogs with female owners, just start this behaviour at about 12 months and experienced owners stop it before it escalates to a problem. I once had a BC that suddenly thought it would be a good idea to growl at any adult that approached me. He was fine with kids, obviously not seeing them as a threat to me. My friends helped me solve this by taking his lead from me if he growled at them so I could walk away and leave him with them. If I wasn't there he couldn't guard me and within about 2 weeks he worked out that if he growled at someone, I would give him to them and leave. That was not the outcome he had planned and the behaviour stopped immediately. I also gave him to friends to work in obedience commands until he was quite relaxed working for anyone that issued commands.

This approach though is NOT something I would recommend in this situation with a Mastiff that has a much stronger guard instinct than a BC and the fact that the situation has already escalated. Also my friends and I where all experienced dog trainers, unlike Chazey and any friends that may attempt to help her.

On the other hand the dog may just be very aggressive by nature and that would mean that he is truly too dangerous to have around. Deciding the true situation cannot be done over the internet. They need an expert to assess the dog and the family.

i think this is there has been a few of us saying that an assessment with a behavioualist is critical and should be done asap.

[Aidan]

however, it takes more thanjust being physically dependant on alcohol to make an alcoholic. some people can be dependant on alcohol as you have described then stop with no ill effects whatso ever. then there is another group who have a much more difficult time stopping alcohol and this is likely due to their predisposition to addictions which is possibly caused by genetics.

It's not my area of expertise but note that I didn't say "physically dependent", and for a reason. Yes, one of the types of alcoholism (described creatively in the literature as "Type I" and "Type II") is more heritable than the other, however both have demonstrated heritability. I don't believe you will ever find a trait that isn't heritable, at some level.

[Jigsaw]

There is a fearful pointer study that was done in the 70's this

and reference to the study here

and further study in the 90's here

To the OP, check with your breeder, get a behaviourist in to look at your situation.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

however, it takes more thanjust being physically dependant on alcohol to make an alcoholic. some people can be dependant on alcohol as you have described then stop with no ill effects whatso ever. then there is another group who have a much more difficult time stopping alcohol and this is likely due to their predisposition to addictions which is possibly caused by genetics.

It's not my area of expertise but note that I didn't say "physically dependent", and for a reason. Yes, one of the types of alcoholism (described creatively in the literature as "Type I" and "Type II") is more heritable than the other, however both have demonstrated heritability. I don't believe you will ever find a trait that isn't heritable, at some level.

then what type of dependant were you talking about?

[Aidan]

then what type of dependant were you talking about?

Whatever reasonable description someone might care to make; whether it be physical or psychological or emotional or any of the dozens of other terms used to describe different types of dependence. PM me if you wish to discuss further.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

then what type of dependant were you talking about?

Whatever reasonable description someone might care to make; whether it be physical or psychological or emotional or any of the dozens of other terms used to describe different types of dependence. PM me if you wish to discuss further.

dont need to discuss txs i worked in the area for years was just curious if you werent talking about physical dependance from feeding someone lots of alcohol what dependance it could possibly be.

[Joel]

thanks jigsaw

[dogbesotted]

good grief!!!!!

the first thing i would be doing is having a full health assessment for the dog:

Complete blood analysis ,including a full ( note full) thyroid panel with antibodies,(note sub clinical hypothyroidism around or less thn say 25% of normal levels, can be an underlying cause of agressive behaviours esp when they suddenly appear)

urine checks etc.

i know the dog is young but youth does not preclude such problems.

I would be then consulting with a reputable behaviourist

and a holistic vet.

Good luck

H

[Aidan]

Complete blood analysis ,including a full ( note full) thyroid panel with antibodies,(note sub clinical hypothyroidism around or less thn say 25% of normal levels, can be an underlying cause of agressive behaviours esp when they suddenly appear)

This is true, but it cannot be tested here. Blood has to go to Hemopet in the USA.

[dogbesotted]

Complete blood analysis ,including a full ( note full) thyroid panel with antibodies,(note sub clinical hypothyroidism around or less thn say 25% of normal levels, can be an underlying cause of agressive behaviours esp when they suddenly appear)

This is true, but it cannot be tested here. Blood has to go to Hemopet in the USA.

true but they are quick in responding and it is not hugely expensive and well worth the little bit of extra effort..

H