Dogs Victoria Wanting To Take More Decisions From Breeders.

[asal]

None of it makes any sense some would be 20, some 22 and some 24 months? Why can you breed a Weimaraner at 12 months but can't breed a Viszla till 2 years? And why can you breed a St Bernard at 18 months, but cant breed a Maremma until 2 years yet a Bernese Mt Dog is 20 months!?

Someone has said making them wait is better for them but no one really knows who said that and there isn't a scrap of science to back any of it up.

Half of the breed club committees who don't have a clue on breeding want to play power games and pretend they aren't straight up bullies and all I hear is how this will stop back yard breeders - what about the dogs? What about treating breeders as if they have enough concern for the welfare of their dogs to make informed decisions based on what they have in their own back yard?

I just don't get why everyone isn't jumping up and down and shouting blue bloody murder about whats going on in Victoria.

If I were living in Victoria I would resign my membership and use another address in NSW and join here.

All that will be left breeding registered dogs is a handful of died in the woods show breeders who have lots of champions, few litters and own one or two dogs - and then they will come for them via pedigreed dogs exposed platform.

But rather than see the big picture and everyone tell them to leave it as it stands all these goody two shows "Im better than anyone else" breeders will give it a tick and feel very important while they are doing it.

None of it has anything to do with the dogs its all egos and PR.

think its a lost cause kiddo.

i know a vet, suprisingly a ex rspca vet, (with quite a few years on the job) who is laughinghing his head off.

what has he said to me?

"it is the end of pedigree dogs, its just a matter of time.

the best age to breed bitches is when they are young and supple, less whelping problems, less fertility problems, less congenital problems, bitches were meant to be pregnant with each season and better off having their pups when they are young and desexed young.

benefits? she has her babies when she is in her youth and prime and if her breeder has to rehome her to make room for the next generation she is 3 or 4, young enough for a very happy family to take her. people think a 5 or 6 year old dog is OLD.

its equally true of bitches as it is for elder women. older they are the more delivery problems, birth defects percentage wise, fertility wise etc.

but hey. who is game enough or silly enough to say such things.

NO MEMBER of a canine body, well unless they are contemplating suicide anyway. is going to try pushing that line of thought today are they?"

was interesting to hear his opinion though.

Edited August 14, 2010 by asal

[asal]

ha. forgot. but what benefits are flowing to his income generation?. breeds he has rarely seen needing ceasers are turning up in droves, common denominator? the ages of the mums, although he suspects the trend to widening heads for the showring too. funny how so many breeds seem to be thought to be better if the head is a bit broader ............

dont fret.

no more comments ..... promise

Edited August 14, 2010 by asal

[asal]

wow... i had NO idea that ACS were so frought with issues... are people reasonably open about these issues within the breed Ellz?

I wish I could say yes.....but..........

what is an acs?

was thinking u meant australian cattledog? are u?

my family has had them from the day i was born and ive never seen one of our dogs with any of the issues u name or blindness issues, one just pegged it at 14 from prostrate cancer? still fine in the eyes though.

umm does this qualify as a question? not a comment?

Edited August 14, 2010 by asal

[ellz]

wow... i had NO idea that ACS were so frought with issues... are people reasonably open about these issues within the breed Ellz?

I wish I could say yes.....but..........

what is an acs?

was thinking u meant australian cattledog? are u?

my family has had them from the day i was born and ive never seen one of our dogs with any of the issues u name or blindness issues, one just pegged it at 14 from prostrate cancer? still fine in the eyes though.

umm does this qualify as a question? not a comment?

No, American Cocker Spaniel.

[puglvr]

Establishing such a criteria will be difficult, but can we afford not to ?

Your thoughts and comments would be greatly appreciated.

Lionel Bleakley

25 May 2010

Isn't this the point. Let them know your thoughts and comments.

[LizT]

I'm quite sure that when I sat my Open Book Registered Breeders Exam with Dogsvic last year the ruling was stated as a generic 18 months minimum age for all bitches bred in Victoria with at leat 18 months between consecutive litters. I think that is a good baseline for all breeds with the onus being on the breeder to hold off on breeding those not considered mature enough to breed yet. Some individuals of larger breeds haven't even have their first season by then.

Why change that??

[Steve]

I'm quite sure that when I sat my Open Book Registered Breeders Exam with Dogsvic last year the ruling was stated as a generic 18 months minimum age for all bitches bred in Victoria with at leat 18 months between consecutive litters. I think that is a good baseline for all breeds with the onus being on the breeder to hold off on breeding those not considered mature enough to breed yet. Some individuals of larger breeds haven't even have their first season by then.

Why change that??

Why not?

[BJean]

I'm quite sure that when I sat my Open Book Registered Breeders Exam with Dogsvic last year the ruling was stated as a generic 18 months minimum age for all bitches bred in Victoria with at leat 18 months between consecutive litters. I think that is a good baseline for all breeds with the onus being on the breeder to hold off on breeding those not considered mature enough to breed yet. Some individuals of larger breeds haven't even have their first season by then.

Why change that??

I think you need to reread the rule book

As a breeder without an affiliated Breed Club,

the overwhelming point of contention is that there are Breed Specific breeding decisions are being made for Central Asian, Anatolian, Kangal

by people who know nothing of the breeds, except for maybe what they look like and their breed name.

It is unfathomable that there are breed specific minimum ages being proposed

with NO consultation with the breeders and those who know the breeds.

So we have random ideas for an Anatolian, Kangal and Central Asian breeding protocol,

being made by people who have no working knowledge of each breeds' respective breeding conditions, gene pool constraints or any of the pressing issues facing their breeding future.

Edited August 15, 2010 by lilli

[LizT]

I'm quite sure that when I sat my Open Book Registered Breeders Exam with Dogsvic last year the ruling was stated as a generic 18 months minimum age for all bitches bred in Victoria with at leat 18 months between consecutive litters. I think that is a good baseline for all breeds with the onus being on the breeder to hold off on breeding those not considered mature enough to breed yet. Some individuals of larger breeds haven't even have their first season by then.

Why change that??

I think you need to reread the rule book

As a breeder without an affiliated Breed Club,

the overwhelming point of contention is that there are Breed Specific breeding decisions are being made for Central Asian, Anatolian, Kangal

by people who know nothing of the breeds, except for maybe what they look like and their breed name.

It is unfathomable that there are breed specific minimum ages being proposed

with NO consultation with the breeders and those who know the breeds.

So we have random ideas for an Anatolian, Kangal and Central Asian breeding protocol,

being made by people who have no working knowledge of each breeds' respective breeding conditions, gene pool constraints or any of the pressing issues facing their breeding future.

Have reread, you're right. Certainly does pay to go over these things when one can at their leisure.

20.1.12

A member shall not breed with a bitch unless the bitch has reached adequate maturity for that breed as determined by the Victorian Canine Association Inc.

Must have got that mixed up with the 20.1.13

A member shall not breed a bitch causing it to whelp more than twice in 18 months without the prior approval of the Victorian Canine Association Inc.

Must have got that mixed up with the CKCS guideline of not breeding before the third season or 18 months.

Totally agree that those with the knowlege of their respective breed should be the decision makers in this type of thing.

And yes, it is a further difficulty for rarer breeds that have no affiliated Club etc. as you have not/do not get consulted on an individual basis yet you are the ones with the knowlege and are best qualified to make the decisions regarding these breeds.

I do, however, find it slightly disturbing that one could breed an 8 months old bitch on her first season if they deemed her adequately mature . I'm sure those people exist, registered breeders and all.

Edited August 17, 2010 by LizT

[LizT]

I'm quite sure that when I sat my Open Book Registered Breeders Exam with Dogsvic last year the ruling was stated as a generic 18 months minimum age for all bitches bred in Victoria with at leat 18 months between consecutive litters. I think that is a good baseline for all breeds with the onus being on the breeder to hold off on breeding those not considered mature enough to breed yet. Some individuals of larger breeds haven't even have their first season by then.

Why change that??

Why not?

My concern is that breeders may choose to breed too young for any testing that will show the onset of inherent diseases.

My understanding is that in the U.K. it is recommended (not yet implemented) that a 'Stud Dog' (and bitch) CKCS be screened for SM at 3 years and again at 6 years. Now how many times could a Stud Dog be used prior to screening if left unrestricted?? How long is that piece of string?

[SparkyTansy]

I think that all those, particularly those without breed clubs need to express their concern in writing if not already...

Even the ones with breed clubs, if you don't agree, but also I think that they are being a little unfair by choosing a specific age simply because a breed club says so... I wouldn't breed a weim at 12 months, but I also think 3 years is too long to wait for an ES, but it's all dependent on maturity of each individual which is the main point here. It should be the decision for the breeder with guidelines NOT rules.

[t-time]

the best age to breed bitches is when they are young and supple, less whelping problems, less fertility problems, less congenital problems,

Many canine fertility experts would agree with this - I know mine does.

[t-time]

Part of such criteria

must clearly identify the difference between hobby and commercial breeding.

Pretty sure this is covered by the Taxation laws? A hobby can earn up to a *certain* amount each year and a commercial interest is above that figure....used to be $50,000 once upon a time but I don't know what that figure is these days.

Can't remember the last time I earned $50,000 from breeding dogs!

My concern is that breeders may choose to breed too young for any testing that will show the onset of inherent diseases.

Then change the mating ages for those breeds! Why penalise every breed? There are many breeds which already require particular health tests before breeding and those tests cannot be performed before a particular age - so create new breeding protocols for those breeds which are slipping through the cracks with health tests.