Steve Posted August 13, 2010 Author Share Posted August 13, 2010 Specifically what health issues - in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Eyes first Skin issues second (not as common) Digestive issues (not as common again) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 wow... i had NO idea that ACS were so frought with issues... are people reasonably open about these issues within the breed Ellz? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 in regards to the original post, are those breeds as listed currently a recommendation made by breed clubs originally? I only ask because there doesn't seem to be any other reasoning for it why those specific ages have been chosen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 wow... i had NO idea that ACS were so frought with issues... are people reasonably open about these issues within the breed Ellz? I wish I could say yes.....but.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapferhund Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Am I missing something? Hasn't it always been around 12mths plus for small breeds and 18mths to 24mths for medium to larger breeds? Shepherds have always been not before 18mths but 20 o 24 mths would be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bokezu Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 (edited) As guidelines I don't see how anyone could possibly have a problem with the ages of the bitches they wish to breed. What is the problem if you have one litter a year? when you go to the breed pages and see over 100 puppy adds for one particular breed and some of these have multiple litters...... Edited August 13, 2010 by Bokezu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted August 13, 2010 Author Share Posted August 13, 2010 (edited) The problem is that it takes away the right to decide from the breeder. There is no science in any of this - its based on what people who rarely breed think it should be. Some breeds may need to wait until testing is done but thats covered in the code anyway. These arent GUIDELINES they are proposing. Edited August 13, 2010 by Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-time Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Steve what do non-VCA members do about this? Havanese hasn't changed but Tibetan Terrier age for breeding is going to be 18 months. This is an interesting age limit as previously you couldn't test for eye issues prior to that age (later onset cataracts etc) so I'm guessing "they" chose 18 months due to (voluntary) health tests? Like, how the heck did they just come up with "oh Tibetan Terriers - 18 months"!!!!! :D I mean most of the other dogs in the 18 month section are large breeds! With all the recent advances in DNA testing and other available health tests, there is no reason why you shouldn't mate a younger TT bitch other than adequate maturity - something that most breeders should be able to assess themselves surely?! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted August 13, 2010 Author Share Posted August 13, 2010 None of it makes any sense some would be 20, some 22 and some 24 months? Why can you breed a Weimaraner at 12 months but can't breed a Viszla till 2 years? And why can you breed a St Bernard at 18 months, but cant breed a Maremma until 2 years yet a Bernese Mt Dog is 20 months!? Someone has said making them wait is better for them but no one really knows who said that and there isn't a scrap of science to back any of it up. Half of the breed club committees who don't have a clue on breeding want to play power games and pretend they aren't straight up bullies and all I hear is how this will stop back yard breeders - what about the dogs? What about treating breeders as if they have enough concern for the welfare of their dogs to make informed decisions based on what they have in their own back yard? I just don't get why everyone isn't jumping up and down and shouting blue bloody murder about whats going on in Victoria. If I were living in Victoria I would resign my membership and use another address in NSW and join here. All that will be left breeding registered dogs is a handful of died in the woods show breeders who have lots of champions, few litters and own one or two dogs - and then they will come for them via pedigreed dogs exposed platform. But rather than see the big picture and everyone tell them to leave it as it stands all these goody two shows "Im better than anyone else" breeders will give it a tick and feel very important while they are doing it. None of it has anything to do with the dogs its all egos and PR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted August 13, 2010 Author Share Posted August 13, 2010 Steve what do non-VCA members do about this? Havanese hasn't changed but Tibetan Terrier age for breeding is going to be 18 months. This is an interesting age limit as previously you couldn't test for eye issues prior to that age (later onset cataracts etc) so I'm guessing "they" chose 18 months due to (voluntary) health tests? Like, how the heck did they just come up with "oh Tibetan Terriers - 18 months"!!!!! :D I mean most of the other dogs in the 18 month section are large breeds! With all the recent advances in DNA testing and other available health tests, there is no reason why you shouldn't mate a younger TT bitch other than adequate maturity - something that most breeders should be able to assess themselves surely?! :D What do non VCA members do? Pray they don't take it to the ANKC and make it national. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 As guidelines I don't see how anyone could possibly have a problem with the ages of the bitches they wish to breed. What is the problem if you have one litter a year?when you go to the breed pages and see over 100 puppy adds for one particular breed and some of these have multiple litters...... I like to be able to choose when I mate a bitch, if I back her straight up or leave her for a couple of seasons, at what age I first mate her. Like the countless others who think about what they are doing, I don't count down the seconds until a bitch turns 12 months, rubbing my hands together in anticipation. Do you also think that I should be restricted to one litter a year ? As it stands at the moment, I'm lucky if a breed a litter a year but I certainly don;t want that choice taken away from myself or others. The SBT always has countless litters listed on DOL, but you try searching for a quality puppy from an ethical breeder and your choices narrow pretty quickly, try searching for a show prospect and you'll find you have even less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Steve what do non-VCA members do about this? Havanese hasn't changed but Tibetan Terrier age for breeding is going to be 18 months. This is an interesting age limit as previously you couldn't test for eye issues prior to that age (later onset cataracts etc) so I'm guessing "they" chose 18 months due to (voluntary) health tests? Like, how the heck did they just come up with "oh Tibetan Terriers - 18 months"!!!!! :D I mean most of the other dogs in the 18 month section are large breeds! With all the recent advances in DNA testing and other available health tests, there is no reason why you shouldn't mate a younger TT bitch other than adequate maturity - something that most breeders should be able to assess themselves surely?! :D What do non VCA members do? Pray they don't take it to the ANKC and make it national. Just a thought Steve, but will they take this a step further and somehow make the rest of us criminals or code breachers, if we send an under age bitch to VIC to be mated ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted August 13, 2010 Author Share Posted August 13, 2010 Not unless you are Victorian member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puglvr Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Half of the breed club committees who don't have a clue on breeding want to play power games and pretend they aren't straight up bullies and all I hear is how this will stop back yard breeders - what about the dogs? What about treating breeders as if they have enough concern for the welfare of their dogs to make informed decisions based on what they have in their own back yard? I take offence to this comment even though it is not directed at all club committees. I know in our case we got member feedback and even though some members wanted an 18 month limit we looked at all possible scenarios and went with the 12 months having enough faith in our members to do what is right by their dogs. Have you considered that people need to aware of what's going on and if there is an issue they need to be in contact with their breed clubs and put forward their views and not just jump up and down when things aren't going the way they like. So if you have an issue with your breeds age then get onto the breed club and do something about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-time Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 All very well if you *have* a breed club puglvr! But that's what I reckon *they* are counting on.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 For my part, if there is basis for rules, then I'm all for it. But it seems lately that rules are simply being made to remove the rights of reputable and responsible breeders to make their own choices for their own dogs and breeding programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eridor Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 as far as my breed is concerned I wouldnt mate a collie before 12mths anyway. But I feel it is another nail in the coffin of pure bred dogs and pure breed responsible breeders. Havent the VCA worked out that without its members they will have no money, no jobs and no nice offices to sit in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trisven13 Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Steve what do non-VCA members do about this? Havanese hasn't changed but Tibetan Terrier age for breeding is going to be 18 months. This is an interesting age limit as previously you couldn't test for eye issues prior to that age (later onset cataracts etc) so I'm guessing "they" chose 18 months due to (voluntary) health tests? Like, how the heck did they just come up with "oh Tibetan Terriers - 18 months"!!!!! I mean most of the other dogs in the 18 month section are large breeds! With all the recent advances in DNA testing and other available health tests, there is no reason why you shouldn't mate a younger TT bitch other than adequate maturity - something that most breeders should be able to assess themselves surely?! Its the same for the Fauves too t-time. There is only one Fauve breeder in Vic so I will be checking with her if she was approached for her input. I'm with Steve on this - we have to be able to make these decisions for ourselves based on what is best for our dogs, not what someone else thinks should happen. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted August 14, 2010 Author Share Posted August 14, 2010 Half of the breed club committees who don't have a clue on breeding want to play power games and pretend they aren't straight up bullies and all I hear is how this will stop back yard breeders - what about the dogs? What about treating breeders as if they have enough concern for the welfare of their dogs to make informed decisions based on what they have in their own back yard?I take offence to this comment even though it is not directed at all club committees. I know in our case we got member feedback and even though some members wanted an 18 month limit we looked at all possible scenarios and went with the 12 months having enough faith in our members to do what is right by their dogs. Have you considered that people need to aware of what's going on and if there is an issue they need to be in contact with their breed clubs and put forward their views and not just jump up and down when things aren't going the way they like. So if you have an issue with your breeds age then get onto the breed club and do something about it. Its not whether I have an issue with my breed's age - its that I want to have some decisions left to the individual breeder. Good grief no matings until 2 years, no more than one litter per year and no litters after 6. No taking a pregnant bitch to a dog show. Why? Where is the science? Then look at this. From their website http://www.dogsvictoria.org.au/assets/pdf/...ssion-paper.pdf Breeding for the improvement of the breed Each member of the VCA is bound by the VCA Code of Practice. We are aware that some members have adopted breeding practices that are contrary to the Code of Practice, and that are not in accordance with the Objectives / Statement of Purposes of the VCA. Breeding practices that are ‘not what we are about’. If we continue to ignore these members and their objectionable breeding, can we continue to claim to be a responsible organisation that should be accepted as an authority on dogs ? Two practices that members find most objectionable are as follows: 1. A member who breeds on a scale that does not fit with “primarily for the purpose of improving the quality and / or working ability”. We refer to this member as a puppy farmer. 2. A member who registers ‘phantom bitches’ to circumvent Clause 20.1.14 of the Code of Practice. The third litter within 18 months from a bitch is registered against the phantom bitch so as to avoid prosecution under that Clause. Puppy farming We cannot regulate to control puppy farming until we first establish the criteria for what we consider to be acceptable breeding practices. We agree that breeding should be planned, therefore can we document an example / guide? If so we can then expect a breeder to document their plan, and produce it on demand ? We are offended by large numbers of puppies – so should we set a limit on the number of litters per year ? Would such a limit be fair across all breeds ? For example a limit of three litters could equate to 30 puppies for a Boxer breeder, but only 9 puppies for a French Bulldog breeder. Also, would we penalise 4 litters in one year if none had been produced in the previous year ? Or would we average the number over a given period, for example any three year period ? Should we limit the number of puppies ? Again fairness across all breeds has to be considered – a limit of 20 puppies might equate to 1 ½ litters of Great Danes but 7 litters of Pugs. We currently limit the number of litters a bitch can produce – should we limit the use of a stud dog ? Should we limit the number of breeds any one member can breed with ? Puppy farmers often have five or more breeds, and the breeds change with the market. How many breeds can a member effectively manage under an acceptable breeding program ? Would the number depend upon such factors as the size of the dog, or the size of the litters of that breed. What other factors would need to be considered ? Should a breeder be required to demonstrate the effectiveness of their program ? For example a specific number of titles ? How would we view a breeder who shows regularly and successfully, breeds excessively, and uses the proceeds of their breeding to finance the importation of good specimens of the breed ? How do we define the difference between commercial and hobby breeding ? Phantom bitches How do we address this problem ? Should we require all breeding stock to be DNA profiled ? Should we require all puppies to be microchipped prior to registration ? If DNA profiling was required, when would it be done ? What form of positive identification would be required ? How would the profiles be recorded and stored ? Should the VCA conduct random inspections of members kennels and breeding ? Reg 3.7.7. empowers to VCA to do so but what would the inspection be gauged against ? The solution ? Clearly the organisation has to establish criteria against which a member can be assessed to determine whether their breeding practices are acceptable to the organisation. Part of such criteria must clearly identify the difference between hobby and commercial breeding. If we try to purge the organisation of puppy farmers without such measurable criteria we face a significant legal risk. Establishing such a criteria will be difficult, but can we afford not to ? Your thoughts and comments would be greatly appreciated. Lionel Bleakley 25 May 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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