Dogs Victoria Wanting To Take More Decisions From Breeders.

[lappiemum]

It is the minimum age, so not before that age, not they should be mated at 12 months. I know the Pug Club was consulted so I am assuming the other breeds were too. We sent out a questionaire to our members and made our recommendation based on that.

i've been notified tonight that the Lappie breed club here in vic has been contacted in the same way.

[marinapoint]

Hmmm, there is no pointer club in VIC. Wonder where they got 18mths from???? Although 18mths is a good figure I think.

I'm guessing its just come across from the GSP club?

[WreckitWhippet]

Another nail in the coffin of the dog world.

Good heavens it will give puppy farmers an open slather.

Absolutely.

Whatever happened to breeders making decisions in the best interests of the individual bitch. Mating age is not a one size fits all line in the sand.

[Trisven13]

Another nail in the coffin of the dog world.

Good heavens it will give puppy farmers an open slather.

Absolutely.

Whatever happened to breeders making decisions in the best interests of the individual bitch. Mating age is not a one size fits all line in the sand.

I'm a long way from an expert on breeding having never bred a litter but I would think that this was a self-evident truth. Decisions such as this need to be made taking into consideration each individual situation.

[WreckitWhippet]

Another nail in the coffin of the dog world.

Good heavens it will give puppy farmers an open slather.

Absolutely.

Whatever happened to breeders making decisions in the best interests of the individual bitch. Mating age is not a one size fits all line in the sand.

I'm a long way from an expert on breeding having never bred a litter but I would think that this was a self-evident truth. Decisions such as this need to be made taking into consideration each individual situation.

Yep and you might find for example one SBT bitch is mature enough to handle a litter first season after 12 months, others might be 18 months and you might think another at three.

It's not just the maturity of the bitch that you consider but also how often they cycle, if there have been any reproductive issues in the lines etc. A bitch that in normal circumstances you might be happy to wait a season or two upon maturity, given the history, may become a bitch that you'd mate sooner rather than later.

It just gets harder and harder, the costs of keeping dogs and raising litters is going up, council restrictions on numbers are getting tougher, the CC's come up with brainwaves that further restrict your activities. I know of breeders that are suddenly finding themselves at the end of a line and it's as simple as being resticted to running on one bitch from a litter and then finding or whatever reason she doesn't produce.

An extra 6 months may not seem like a long time to wait to have a litter, but bitches don't always follow the text book and that 6 months could easily turn into a year or more.

[ellz]

An extra 6 months may not seem like a long time to wait to have a litter, but bitches don't always follow the text book and that 6 months could easily turn into a year or more.

My bitch Ali is a good example of that. Cycled "normally" until she was 18 months old. Finally came back into season at 3. Didn't have another season until she was almost 6.

[WreckitWhippet]

I wonder what it would take to challenge rule. I would think that if my vet certified that my bitch ( let's sat SBT under 18 months ) was fit to breed after 12 months and prior to the 18, that Dogs Vic may not have a leg to stand on.

[Rysup]

I've found myself in a similar situation. A bitch I kept to breed on with, she came into "normal" season last when I was in hospital sick, and OH didnt realise. She would have been 2 and I was going to mate her. Since then she has had all sorts of weird and wonderful cycles, but none successful and suddenly she is 6 1/2, not had a litter and I am doubtful I will get anything from her. I have lost a line I have been working on for almost 20 years. In hindsight I should have just mated her early, might have avoided all this stress!

[Steve]

BUT what is the impact on others.

Danes was 18 months, now 24months. Im ok with that.

Sway- Do you mind explaining to me why you think it should be moved back ?

Im not having a go - Im just trying to understand where you are coming from?

Edited August 13, 2010 by Steve

[ellz]

For my part I think Staffords should be 12 months and American Cockers 24 months (AT LEAST).

I'm going on a health slant here. Most Stafford issues can be either DNA tested for, or seen at a young age. American Cocker eye issues don't tend to come on very early in life, more after the age of two than anything else, even 3 as it used to be generally accepted. And there are few American Cocker eye issues that have DNA markers at this stage so it is reliant upon being seen by the human eye under proper eye examination.

[Steve]

For my part I think Staffords should be 12 months and American Cockers 24 months (AT LEAST).

I'm going on a health slant here. Most Stafford issues can be either DNA tested for, or seen at a young age. American Cocker eye issues don't tend to come on very early in life, more after the age of two than anything else, even 3 as it used to be generally accepted. And there are few American Cocker eye issues that have DNA markers at this stage so it is reliant upon being seen by the human eye under proper eye examination.

What if you have dogs you are sure don't have eye problems?

[ellz]

For my part I think Staffords should be 12 months and American Cockers 24 months (AT LEAST).

I'm going on a health slant here. Most Stafford issues can be either DNA tested for, or seen at a young age. American Cocker eye issues don't tend to come on very early in life, more after the age of two than anything else, even 3 as it used to be generally accepted. And there are few American Cocker eye issues that have DNA markers at this stage so it is reliant upon being seen by the human eye under proper eye examination.

What if you have dogs you are sure don't have eye problems?

With American Cockers you can never BE sure without testing. There is no such thing. Supposedly clear bloodlines have broken. The breed is one fraught with heartbreak.

[Steve]

For my part I think Staffords should be 12 months and American Cockers 24 months (AT LEAST).

I'm going on a health slant here. Most Stafford issues can be either DNA tested for, or seen at a young age. American Cocker eye issues don't tend to come on very early in life, more after the age of two than anything else, even 3 as it used to be generally accepted. And there are few American Cocker eye issues that have DNA markers at this stage so it is reliant upon being seen by the human eye under proper eye examination.

What if you have dogs you are sure don't have eye problems?

With American Cockers you can never BE sure without testing. There is no such thing. Supposedly clear bloodlines have broken. The breed is one fraught with heartbreak.

Thats interesting what is the mode of inheritance ?

[ellz]

For my part I think Staffords should be 12 months and American Cockers 24 months (AT LEAST).

I'm going on a health slant here. Most Stafford issues can be either DNA tested for, or seen at a young age. American Cocker eye issues don't tend to come on very early in life, more after the age of two than anything else, even 3 as it used to be generally accepted. And there are few American Cocker eye issues that have DNA markers at this stage so it is reliant upon being seen by the human eye under proper eye examination.

What if you have dogs you are sure don't have eye problems?

With American Cockers you can never BE sure without testing. There is no such thing. Supposedly clear bloodlines have broken. The breed is one fraught with heartbreak.

Thats interesting what is the mode of inheritance ?

Therein lies part of the problem. It is still largely unknown. That is part of the reason that the breed is one of the few where DNA markers have not yet been established.

The only mode of inheritance that we can use is Simple Mendalian, which is of course only as good as the numbers.

It used to be that if a dog reached the age of 7, it could be certified as being permanently clear, but even that has been revoked in more recent years because older dogs were still breaking with cataracts and PRA.

[whippets]

off topic a bit:

How early do the American cockers "usually" present with inherited cataracts? The one I had was blind in one eye at 12mths of age then the other went at 2 years of age. He was totally blind at 2 1/2 years of age. His pedigree is all over, sire came from the USA, to here , then over to Sweden and still a few here breed on the lines.

[ellz]

off topic a bit:

How early do the American cockers "usually" present with inherited cataracts? The one I had was blind in one eye at 12mths of age then the other went at 2 years of age. He was totally blind at 2 1/2 years of age. His pedigree is all over, sire came from the USA, to here , then over to Sweden and still a few here breed on the lines.

How long is a piece of string Whippets?

Half of the problem is identifying what kind of cataract it is. Many vets will allow a unilateral cataract to pass an eye test, claiming it to not be hereditary and that only bilateral cataracts are hereditary. The reality is closer to being ANY cataract is potentially hereditary AND blinding and ANY cataract should be removed from the breeding program, as should the parents. But many breeders don't. And many, as Steve said, THINK that their dogs should be ok and continue breeding with them.

And editing to add: This is also why many breeders will not breed from an ACS under the age of 3 years. It was always anecdotally accepted amongst reputable breeders that 3 was the earliest age to breed whereupon most issues would have become apparent.

Edited August 13, 2010 by ellz

[Steve]

Ellz - when you get a minute could you write us an article on this?

[ellz]

Ellz - when you get a minute could you write us an article on this?

Well, I can try Steve.

It's interesting...and frustrating!

[Steve]

I think its really interesting.I commend you for your knowledge of your breed.

If you had to choose - in order - what would you say were the biggest challenges within your breed- from a breeding perspective.

[ellz]

Hmmmm......biggest challenges in order would have to be health, followed by temperament and then type.

I feel that if you choose your dogs properly and breed the best you can to the best you can that type is relatively automatic, ie they will still look like an American Cocker Spaniel.

It is breeding the dogs that people can live with (ie, good, stable, sane temperament) for a LONG time (ie good health) that is the most difficult and most important IMO.

Edited August 13, 2010 by ellz