Aggressive Dogs And Public Places

[Odin-Genie]

Here's how I defined aggressive in this poll (Note: I don't think this definition includes all forms of aggression, but I tried to come up with one of the more serious cases of aggression)

I would define aggressive as a dog who is likely to bite in retaliation if it is scared or surprised through sudden petting or sniffing etc.

Do you think this type of aggression is not serious enough to stop a dog from being allowed offlead with children around?

Is it that hard to say to a child - "STOP, dont pat my dog"? There is no reason for a child to be in petting distance anyway

My dog would go off his nut if a strange child tried to touch him. Would he bite them? Perhaps if he was pushed.. I really don't know. Would I allow a child to get close enough to find out? No way.

You can say what you like to people, but in a public space, you cannot control what others will do.

If you get into a situation where children don't listen, or you are caught by surprise, you would be fully responsible if your dog bit. Knowing how your dog reacts, he is a good candidate to be muzzled.

I agree with Greytmate. I've been surprised by kids once while walking my dogs on lead. Two teenagers walked up politely and asked if they could pat my dogs. I said yes since my dogs are excellent with kids and people. While petting the dogs one of the boys suddenly crouched and made growling noises at my dogs. It's a good thing my dogs don't react. They just stepped back behind me but they were shaking. I understand that people with aggressive dogs wouldn't allow a dog to come close to their dog, but when the dog is offlead, any child can run up to it or chase it.

[sas]

I still maintain that a DA or HA dog is NOT well-trained and should not be in a public place.

IMO for a dog to be considered "well-trained", training and control should over-ride instinct. If a dog still has aggressive instincts, it is not well-trained.

I see where you are coming from, however instinct is hard wired....it would be like training you to breath in a certain way all the time rather than the way you are hard wired to....you'd slip up.

Unacceptable aggression is not instinct (although can have genetic links), dogs become aggressive for all sorts of reasons and you have to understand the nature of the aggression.

To me training and Leadership are 2 different things. I've seen the most awesome trained dogs be aggressive in an unacceptable manner.

Leadership is not an easy feat for humans....training humans how to be Leaders to their canines should happen before training in my opinion and even then aggression can occur i.e. fear aggression is said to be one of the trickest forms of aggression and some Behaviourists believe it can only be managed and never cured.

Edited August 11, 2010 by sas

[corvus]

I would define aggressive as a dog who is likely to bite in retaliation if it is scared or surprised through sudden petting or sniffing etc.

Even that's open to interpretation. I'm going to put my flame suit on.

My last dog as she grew older and her eyesight deteriorated was liable to snap at children that put their fingers near her eyes. I never considered muzzling her. I was caught by surprise a couple of times when it first started happening, but after that I watched her like a hawk. Most kids in my area are brilliant and always ask before patting my dogs. This dog loved kids in general and kids loved her, so I'd say "Yes you can pat her, but don't put your hands near her face. She can't see very well anymore and she might snap at you." Parents and children were very accepting of this and always behaved as directed. Once I knew she could be a little unpredictable about her eyes I didn't let her get far enough away from me that I couldn't intervene physically if I had to, but I still let her off leash. I don't think I was being wildly irresponsible or exposing children to unnecessary danger. Yes, I think she may have bitten in retaliation if scared or startled. No, I don't think she would have broken the skin or left a bruise, even being old and grumpy. And no, I didn't think that it was necessary to keep her on leash for everyone's safety and her piece of mind. She was fine the vast majority of the time and I found it very easy to manage. We never had any problems. I was always upfront about it with kids and their parents and they seemed perfectly happy with that. The dog was perfectly happy. Potential aggression managed.

If I thought she would bite harder I'd have assessed the situation completely differently.

[Red Fox]

Here's how I defined aggressive in this poll (Note: I don't think this definition includes all forms of aggression, but I tried to come up with one of the more serious cases of aggression)

I would define aggressive as a dog who is likely to bite in retaliation if it is scared or surprised through sudden petting or sniffing etc.

Do you think this type of aggression is not serious enough to stop a dog from being allowed offlead with children around?

Is it that hard to say to a child - "STOP, dont pat my dog"? There is no reason for a child to be in petting distance anyway

My dog would go off his nut if a strange child tried to touch him. Would he bite them? Perhaps if he was pushed.. I really don't know. Would I allow a child to get close enough to find out? No way.

You can say what you like to people, but in a public space, you cannot control what others will do.

If you get into a situation where children don't listen, or you are caught by surprise, you would be fully responsible if your dog bit. Knowing how your dog reacts, he is a good candidate to be muzzled.

Yes, I would be fully responsible if my dog bit someone. And for that reason I do not allow my dog offleash in public areas.

Nor do I allow strange people or children to approach my dog - EVER. No I can't control other peoples children and what they do, but what I CAN do is to keep my dog on leash and if a child appoaches they are told to STOP, DO NOT COME NEAR THE DOG. If they continue to approach I step between my dog and the child/person and tell them again.

Yes, I have had young children run towards my dog/surprise my dog. I've also had idiot adults bark at him on a few occasions. There are options here though: redirect the dogs attention elsewhere, use your body to block the dog, turn and leave the situation... (or in the case of idiot adults tell them exactly what I think of them).

Personally I would not term my dog as HA at all and if he was he would certianly be muzzled in public. He just does not take kindly to people being in his personal space and so we do not allow it to happen. I don't know if he would bite (I am doubtful of it unless he was seriously threatened), but I'm not about to play the "see what happens" game and find out with someone elses child.

Anyhow, this is not about my dog as I do not allow him to be off leash anyway..

[jacqui835]

Well just got home from the park, and my dog has been attacked by a known DA dog. My dog has to have stitches above his eye but thankfully I guess the eye itself is fine. He has other bite marks on the side of his face and lip but although they are bleeding they don't require stitches. My heart on the other hand still won't calm down and I'm on the verge of tears because I feel like I have failed him. Dog that attacked was a purebred entire male Am staff with papers, which he pulled out to show someone when they called his dog a pitbull after the attack and told him to keep his illegal breed away from the park. My dog is an entire male doberman who weighs over 40kg, the Am staff is supposedly just over 35 but it didn't look like my dog had much of a chance, and additionally, he just didn't even try.

Didn't know the dog was DA when we got there though, though I thought it wasn't a good sign when the owner was unable to get a ball off his own dog. The dog almost always had a ball in its mouth, and kept bringing it over to my dog (and all the other dogs in the park) to try and tease them, like almost looking like it was trying to put the ball into the mouth of another dog. Well my dog was right at my feet, and this other dog was doing just that but I guess because he was already on me, he didn't run away like he had all of the other times. The dog suddenly growled dropped his ball and attacked my dog. My dog just cried and I didn't know what to do because this attacking dog was on top of him and so strong. I was trying to grab my dog but the other dog wouldn't let go of him and finally the dog's owner was able to hold his neck and make him let go.

Guy then admitted that his dog doesn't like males who are younger than him, but is usually ok so long as he has a ball in his mouth. What kind of control strategy is that?!

I know that all dogs need exercise, and all dogs should be allowed to run off-leash, but damn it, if your dog wants to kill other dogs or badly maim them it is not fair to the other dogs and their owners to put them at even minimal risk because losing a dog is just not something I or I'm sure many owners would deal well with (if we could at all). The dogs are often faster than we are, so I don't know if you can ever really say that you have 100% control and what are you supposed to do when another dog is biting yours? Hope that it's paying enough attention and isn't also HA so that you can remove it without getting injured yourself?

I don't know what the poll is asking exactly, because if he had been on the other side of the park, that probably would have been fine. But the guy actually brought him over to stand with the rest of us.

[Staranais]

I am sorry for your dog, Jacqui, and I hope he is fine.

It sounds like this owner, and this dog, should not have been at that offleash park.

[sas]

I'm so sorry for your dog, please report this inccident to the Council.

[jacqui835]

I'm so sorry for your dog, please report this inccident to the Council.

Vet told me the same thing whilst we were there so that's done. I was initially scared to do it because I am worried our council will take it out on all dogs, but the attitude of this guy was just something else. Thanks guys, my boy seems to have forgotten about the whole thing and I'm just trying my best to stop comforting and hugging him lol.

[Adnil444]

Well just got home from the park, and my dog has been attacked by a known DA dog. My dog has to have stitches above his eye but thankfully I guess the eye itself is fine. He has other bite marks on the side of his face and lip but although they are bleeding they don't require stitches. My heart on the other hand still won't calm down and I'm on the verge of tears because I feel like I have failed him. Dog that attacked was a purebred entire male Am staff with papers, which he pulled out to show someone when they called his dog a pitbull after the attack and told him to keep his illegal breed away from the park. My dog is an entire male doberman who weighs over 40kg, the Am staff is supposedly just over 35 but it didn't look like my dog had much of a chance, and additionally, he just didn't even try.

Didn't know the dog was DA when we got there though, though I thought it wasn't a good sign when the owner was unable to get a ball off his own dog. The dog almost always had a ball in its mouth, and kept bringing it over to my dog (and all the other dogs in the park) to try and tease them, like almost looking like it was trying to put the ball into the mouth of another dog. Well my dog was right at my feet, and this other dog was doing just that but I guess because he was already on me, he didn't run away like he had all of the other times. The dog suddenly growled dropped his ball and attacked my dog. My dog just cried and I didn't know what to do because this attacking dog was on top of him and so strong. I was trying to grab my dog but the other dog wouldn't let go of him and finally the dog's owner was able to hold his neck and make him let go.

Guy then admitted that his dog doesn't like males who are younger than him, but is usually ok so long as he has a ball in his mouth. What kind of control strategy is that?!

I know that all dogs need exercise, and all dogs should be allowed to run off-leash, but damn it, if your dog wants to kill other dogs or badly maim them it is not fair to the other dogs and their owners to put them at even minimal risk because losing a dog is just not something I or I'm sure many owners would deal well with (if we could at all). The dogs are often faster than we are, so I don't know if you can ever really say that you have 100% control and what are you supposed to do when another dog is biting yours? Hope that it's paying enough attention and isn't also HA so that you can remove it without getting injured yourself?

I don't know what the poll is asking exactly, because if he had been on the other side of the park, that probably would have been fine. But the guy actually brought him over to stand with the rest of us.

Hi Jacqui, hope your dog is ok and that you are too. I would report this dog - it should not be in an off-leash park. Off-leash parks are for well socialised, not DA, not HA dogs - end of story. Any dog that would do that should never be allowed in an area where it could again attack another dog - imagine if it had been a smaller male dog that was younger than his dog - it wouldn't have had a chance. Report it to the council. The owner needs to take responsibility and ensure that this does not happen again.

[Adnil444]

The only individuals whose behaviour you can predict or control in a public place are you and your dog, to whatever extent you have control over your dog.

Even a well-behaved, dog-educated child can ignore a directive not to pat a strange dog if, for instance, the dog looks a lot like one they are very familiar with and identify as friendly. In their mind your dog is "just like <child friendly dog>" and they may not process a request not to pat, especially if the dog is off-leash, unmuzzled and doesn't issue a warning bark or growl until the child is very close. This doesn't make them stupid or naughty; even an intelligent kid doesn't think the same way as an adult. A poorly-behaved, ill-educated or excitable child, then, is just as likely to flat out ignore a stranger telling them what to do, even when the dog is completely unknown to them and issuing clear warning signs.

Nobody has any kind of reliable control over other people's children, especially in a park context where the parents may be some distance away. The responsible thing to do is to ensure your dog is safe, and safe to be around, in the company of even wilfully disobedient kids lacking supervision from parents. A dog that might bite if a child touches it should be muzzled when off-lead in the presence of children, because whatever control you might have over the dog, you have absolutely none over the children.

I do agree, however when I see unruly kids in the park, I ask them not to behave that way, will talk to the parents about proper behaviour around dogs and in most cases, the parents have no idea. They think that because their dog is ok with the kids, that all dogs will be. So many of the dogs are living in households with no kids, kids that are grown up etc etc. Not every dog is or has been exposed to kids and some parents just don't have any idea. I'm always amazed at the amount of toddlers/young kids that will run and hug my dogs (rottiexdobe and dobexkelpie) without asking me first, parents just watching without asking - and parents wonder why kids get bitten!! Thankfully my dogs love all people, however no dog owner can ever guarantee that their dog won't bite. I always nicely tell these kids and parents that doing this is wrong and to always ask the owner first if they can pat the dog. Hopefully they listen and take on board these comments. My son would never and has never approached a strange dog without first asking the owner if it is ok - he has been around dogs since birth and has a healthy respect and love of dogs.

[DerRottweiler]

Sorry about the Dobe, seems like he is fine though.

That is the flip side to the story, you don't know what other dogs will do.

If you have a small dog, or a dog that would not defend itself were it to be attacked, I would never risk taking the dog to an off-leash park.....because there are aggressive dogs going around with stupid owners.

[ellz]

I still maintain that a DA or HA dog is NOT well-trained and should not be in a public place.

IMO for a dog to be considered "well-trained", training and control should over-ride instinct. If a dog still has aggressive instincts, it is not well-trained.

I see where you are coming from, however instinct is hard wired....it would be like training you to breath in a certain way all the time rather than the way you are hard wired to....you'd slip up.

Unacceptable aggression is not instinct (although can have genetic links), dogs become aggressive for all sorts of reasons and you have to understand the nature of the aggression.

To me training and Leadership are 2 different things. I've seen the most awesome trained dogs be aggressive in an unacceptable manner.

Leadership is not an easy feat for humans....training humans how to be Leaders to their canines should happen before training in my opinion and even then aggression can occur i.e. fear aggression is said to be one of the trickest forms of aggression and some Behaviourists believe it can only be managed and never cured.

I hear you and understand..... And it only reinforces my belief that certain individuals should a) never own dogs and b) if they DO own dogs, they should never be allowed to take them offlead to ANY public place!!!!

[Odin-Genie]

I'm so sorry for your dog, please report this inccident to the Council.

Vet told me the same thing whilst we were there so that's done. I was initially scared to do it because I am worried our council will take it out on all dogs, but the attitude of this guy was just something else. Thanks guys, my boy seems to have forgotten about the whole thing and I'm just trying my best to stop comforting and hugging him lol.

Hi jacqui835, I'm so sorry to hear about the dog attack. My dog was attacked a few weeks back as well, though since I and my OH were both there, we could pull this dog off without anyone getting hurt. But I told the owners that I was going to report them to the council (since they refused to put their dog on lead and were quite rude) and I called the council immediately.

Usually, to enable the council to take any action, you need to provide the breed, name of the dog and address of the owner. If that's not available, car registration number would work. Then you'll have to fill out a statutory declaration about the attack. The procedure might be slightly different in other states. This is how it works in my council.

Please do report this dog. This dog might end up seriously hurting another dog someday if the owner is not reported.

[Trojanowski]

No to both.

I made the absolutely stupid mistake bringing my DA dog to the dog park (even tho. he was never off leash, recall trained and muzzled) to desensitise my dog to other dogs. I used to think that if I did this long enough it would eventually work, I even had the support of the other dog owners at the park using this method. I've now realised I approached this in the wrong way and was actually causing stress on my dog for forcing him into those situations. I learned the hard and long way.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Trojanowski

[Kirislin]

No to both because I dont even think I would have a dog that was aggressive to either dogs or humans.

[ellz]

HA dogs wouldn't last long here either Kirislin. ANY dog that bites a human unprovoked for ANY reason goes to doG here. HA isn't tolerated.

DA is different, a lot depends upon the circumstances and how well you manage them.

[hortfurball]

No and No. I agree it's a no brainer.

Large area, few people around, vigilant owner and a well controlled off leash dog in an off leash area? Whats the problem there?

Potential. It's simply not worth the risk if you know your dog has issues. I acknowledge the fact that you've already said that you don't let yours off leash so we're talking hypothetical here. For me, ANY risk is too much risk. I wouldn't risk a lynch mob baying for my dog's blood, I keep my guys safe by keeping them on leash (mine are somewhat DA depending on the other dogs). Plus, it's better exercise to have your dog on leash and walk/jog with it rather than stand around socialising while your dog runs around.

Vet told me the same thing whilst we were there so that's done. I was initially scared to do it because I am worried our council will take it out on all dogs, but the attitude of this guy was just something else. Thanks guys, my boy seems to have forgotten about the whole thing and I'm just trying my best to stop comforting and hugging him lol.

Sorry to hear about your boy Jacqui. I'm going to regurgitate some info I remember reading here on DOL over the years and say stop making a fuss of him, act like nothing happened and get him out socialising with KNOWN friendly dogs pronto in a controlled situation (ie not a dog park but a friend's house or your own.) Wish I'd found DOL in time to be able to do that for my two, might not have DA dogs now.

I hear you and understand..... And it only reinforces my belief that certain individuals should a) never own dogs and b) if they DO own dogs, they should never be allowed to take them offlead to ANY public place!!!!

:p Oh if only!!

No to both because I dont even think I would have a dog that was aggressive to either dogs or humans.

What are you saying here? That if one of your dogs was attacked and ended up with DA, you'd have your buddy PTS? Or that for some magical reason you'd never end up owning a DA dog? Sometimes it can happen despite your best intentions. My dogs have become somewhat DA through being attacked when younger, they didn't start out DA and I certainly didn't choose them because they had 'attitude' as pups. They used to both be great with anyone and everything. Thanks to other people's DA dogs being offleash and out of control, I now have the issue myself. Difference is, mine are never offleash in public so I'm not continuing the cycle for the next poor unsuspecting owner.

I scared a guy the other day, his off leash dog approached fast (in a 'dogs must be ON lead' area of course - amazing how many people can't read ) and I stepped between Ella and his dog and growled "Back Off" in such a tone that I've never seen anyone scramble to get their dog back on leash so fast! Then he fumbled it and let the dog go and, as we'd moved a few metres further on by then as I thought he had it in hand, seemed to think 'oh well never mind' until I said "She's dog aggressive" and he jumped forward and grabbed his dog again (who was once again making a beeline for us.) My apologies for the grammar in this paragraph, it sucks but I'm too tired to try to fix it without just hitting delete. ;)

Edited August 13, 2010 by hortfurball

[Trojanowski]

No to both because I dont even think I would have a dog that was aggressive to either dogs or humans.

What are you saying here? That if one of your dogs was attacked and ended up with DA, you'd have your buddy PTS? Or that for some magical reason you'd never end up owning a DA dog? Sometimes it can happen despite your best intentions.

Well said

[TsarsMum]

HA dogs wouldn't last long here either Kirislin. ANY dog that bites a human unprovoked for ANY reason goes to doG here. HA isn't tolerated.

DA is different, a lot depends upon the circumstances and how well you manage them.

LOL dont go into the please help thread i just got shot for saying that my dog if it went to or attacked my kids or there mates for no reason would be so quick down to the vets its not funny.

my rotti was DA but really it more a domminace thing i would never ever ever let him off (we dont have alot of fenced dog areas in wa anyways)