Please Help

[Monah]

I realise you are reluctant to separate them, but please do especially if you are not home. Even when you are at home it would only take seconds for the worse to happen. You know your dogs and we dont, but that does not change the fact that there has been a pretty serious dust up.

Have you taken the pup back to the vet to check his operation and puncture wounds? these can infect quickly and become serious problems. IMO a pup who has just been desexed should not be running with a large adult dog anyway,(especially if the larger dog may hump or be physically rough with the pup ) and pup may also need a bucket on his head to prevent pulling stitches etc. Other dogs also will pull stitches or lick the operation area.

It does not matter what size the yard is, or how much the dogs 'like' each other, they need to be separated. I'm sure there is a way you can do this. A pup has no chance against a large dog and may even be suffering anxiety and nerves from the attack, not nice for the defenceless puppy at all.

I really REALLY hope this has a positive outcome, K9 is excellent and knows his stuff inside out. You need a behaviourist or at least some professional advice.xxxx

Edited August 9, 2010 by Monah

[Aussienot]

If at any stage I think Razor and Boss are not suitable to be living together bet your candy ass I will separate them. BUT one fight will not make me think this. If the fighting continues and grows worse then I will be considering if it is best for them to be separated or live apart etc but if a fight occurs once every few months that is not reason for me to seperate them permanently.

An injury fight 'every few months' is far outside my tolerance for peaceful living. Separate the dogs now, and get professional help. The separation may or may not be permanent, but leaving them alone to sort it out as you are doing is a receipe for disaster.

You also think Bossington is happy living with Razor. My guess is that he has a different opinion.

[ashaflynn]

You have a serious issue here and those dogs should not be left unsupervised together. Bull breed type dogs are fantastic but once you encounter dominance issues you've got a really tough situation on your hands. Boss is only a young dog at the moment but as he matures his dominance level is going to increase and he will start standing up to Razor more. The fact that Razor has already had a go at him over smelling different etc etc (and sorry ... puncture wounds is more serious than just a scuffle!) you are likely going to have major issues down the track when the dominance battle really kicks in ... and it will. One has to be dominant and bull breeds just don't back off as quickly or easily as other breed types. I have seen the result of two of these types of dogs living happily together for some time and then the dominance battle started. It was not pretty and one of the dogs was so severly attacked she was lucky she survived.

By all means desex Razor asap but as someone else mentioned it's probably not going to have a major effect now. The only other advice has already been mentioned. Separate the dogs, call in a behaviouralist and monitor the situation like a hawk. If these measures do not help and the problem escalates (preferably before a major fight occurs) then I would be rehoming Boss. If you really want another dog as company for Razor then you need to do some research and get a breed with a softer/less dominant personality type that Razor can enjoy the company of.

Good luck ... I don't envy your situation.

[jackie_a1]

He has already been brought back to the vet for his check up he has no external stitches I asked specifically for none cause I knew he'd bite at them. His wound is completely healed the vet said it was fine no swelling and I was able to let him outside get wet play etc. Which is why he is back outside.

Aussie it is just that YOUR GUESS. He is happy living with him considering this is the first incident occurring, they sleep, eat and play together. You are assuming that there will be fights every few months? I will not let the fighting continue. Boss was brought into the house hold as company for Razor. Boss loves Razor if there were any signs otherwise I am not ignorant and would have identified them. Just because there was a minor tiff you think they hate each other?

Please don't portray Razor to be mauling the poor defenseless puppy monah. That was Razor and Bosses first incident. Prior to this they lived happily. If Razor was continually attacking Boss (As of last night they were inside and I supervised all night no incidents) then I would definitely be fearing for Boss. They are outside and they will be supervised today as I have a friend home. There is two puncture wounds on both side of his neck they are scabs I just went and touched it, they are not deep they are quite small and has a nick above his eye. Other than that this morning he is fine.

Thankyou to those who posted advice and not judgement.

[jackie_a1]

Asha I have done a lot of research into bull breeds before even owning one. I know what breeds are suitable for Razor and which aren't.

Razor is very dog orientated but I see now however he may prefer to LIVE by himself. If this does escalate I will be separating them permanently obviously it's without question. It may however not. And once Razor is desexed and consulted by the behaviourist then I will make my decision.

Until such time I am doing everything to keep my dogs welfare in mind.

[Monah]

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was suggesting Razor is a 'bad' dog. I wasn't. I know plenty of dogs who have had incidents like this who are wonderful dogs.

I was only hoping to point out that although Razor is a lovely dog, he IS capable of really doing damage to a puppy, and that being attacked by a large adult dog IS traumatising for any other dog.

As for waiting for the situation to escalate before separating them, (and having them together outside while a friend is home inside,), once it does escalate, it may be far too late.

Razor has given a warning of what could happen again, often it is best to take notice of what our dogs are telling us, not wait to be told again.

and yes, I have been through this myself.

THere are many bull breed owners on here, and breeders, who are incredible sources of excellent information. It may be worthwhile to go into the bullbreeds breed pages at the top of DOL and ask for more specific advice and how they have managed these things themmselves.

[Greytmate]

Pers sorry just re- read your post.

No no I don't want this thread to get out of hand please. My dogs will live together and are living together happily. If at any stage I think Razor and Boss are not suitable to be living together bet your candy ass I will separate them. BUT one fight will not make me think this. If the fighting continues and grows worse then I will be considering if it is best for them to be separated or live apart etc but if a fight occurs once every few months that is not reason for me to seperate them permanently. They are dogs. Dogs behave like dogs.

Its my decision as a responsible owner when to decide when the situation is too serious. At the moment it isn't a matter that makes me fear for the safety of my dogs. And I hope people aren't assuming this will necessarily get worse. I am doing everything I can to ensure it doesn't. Many dogs have minor fights living in a household together. I tend to not over react.

(edit to write permanently)

You are not taking this seriously enough. The thread will only get out of hand if you keep your head in that bucket of sand and ignore what you are being told.

If you had really known your breeds and your dog you would never have brought in a male pup. You even admit your dog is so 'dominant' it is unable to get along with dogs that don't accept that.

The situation right now is very serious. It only takes one fight for dogs to be killed. One fight, under supervision, you have no hope in hell of pulling two fighting bull-breed males apart if they want to fight. No hope at all. The decision may be taken right out of your hands.

You may not have as many real options as you think you do.

I fear for the safety of your dogs.

Separate now, and understand that even with professional help you may never be able to have these two together.

[aussielover]

Good on you for getting the help of a behaviourist

I'm sure you will do the right thing for both your dogs and I hope you can get everything sorted!

[Joel]

Desexing might take some of the fire out of his temperament. But he will not change his learned habits unless you train him.

I would separate the dogs, and consult a behaviourist.

+1

Just to add though... I think one of the biggest problems with your situation is that Razor probably should have had his dominance issues sorted out before Boss came along and IMO that is of the utmost priority. It seems that up until now, dominance has been allowed and even encouraged. But now that Boss is starting to pick up on this too, they're going to fight about it.

gets on well with other dogs so long as its established he is dominant and I have not met one dog challenge this.

This worried me, as I think you're asking for trouble eventually. Maybe it hasn't been any yet, maybe it never will, but its a big risk. This also means that he > you. Again, may be a problem in the future and it may never be an issue, but its something to keep in mind while you're talking to a behaviourist (if thats the road you decide to take)

Whichever way you decide to tackle it, I hope it all works out and they stay buddies

EDIT:

Also, I want to +1 to whats been already said about keeping in mind that because of their breed, there is no way you will separate them if they really want to fight.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Joel

[Paganman]

Sorry but I think your living very danderously.Ive got a dominant staffordx female and Id never bring another female into her enviroment it might be ok while it was a pup but once it started growing up I know Id have trouble.Shes desexed but it didnt make her less dominant.I can see your situation getting worse as the young dog gets older.None of the breeders Ive ever spoken to recomend you have 2 bull breeds of the same sex it can sometimes work but if it doesnt well look out.If it was me Id be finding a new home for the young dog and maybe getting a softer female if you want another dog.

Im no expert but this is what I think sorry if its not what you want to hear

[ashaflynn]

Asha I have done a lot of research into bull breeds before even owning one. I know what breeds are suitable for Razor and which aren't.

Razor is very dog orientated but I see now however he may prefer to LIVE by himself. If this does escalate I will be separating them permanently obviously it's without question. It may however not. And once Razor is desexed and consulted by the behaviourist then I will make my decision.

Until such time I am doing everything to keep my dogs welfare in mind.

Can I ask what research led you to believe that a dominant, entire male Bullmastiff X Pitt and a young male Amstaff X Pitt would be suitable companions for each other? I'm sorry but you will find that most expert opinions would be the exact opposite of what you have done.

Razor is not what I would call dog oriented. Razor is a dominant male who is welcoming of other dogs as long as they are submissive to him. Razor will not tolerate any other dogs trying to assert dominance over him - which is a problem when in the natural order of things dogs will "test out" the reactions of other dogs to this assertion. If Razor has no tolerance of that and just reacts then he will not cope when Boss starts to develop and, as is his right and natural instincts, starts to test the limits. Razor needs a dog (preferably a bitch) that is submissive, soft natured and smaller than him so his dominance is not being challenged (and won't be down the track) in any way.

[Monah]

Pers sorry just re- read your post.

No no I don't want this thread to get out of hand please. My dogs will live together and are living together happily. If at any stage I think Razor and Boss are not suitable to be living together bet your candy ass I will separate them. BUT one fight will not make me think this. If the fighting continues and grows worse then I will be considering if it is best for them to be separated or live apart etc but if a fight occurs once every few months that is not reason for me to seperate them permanently. They are dogs. Dogs behave like dogs.

Its my decision as a responsible owner when to decide when the situation is too serious. At the moment it isn't a matter that makes me fear for the safety of my dogs. And I hope people aren't assuming this will necessarily get worse. I am doing everything I can to ensure it doesn't. Many dogs have minor fights living in a household together. I tend to not over react.

(edit to write permanently)

You are not taking this seriously enough. The thread will only get out of hand if you keep your head in that bucket of sand and ignore what you are being told.

If you had really known your breeds and your dog you would never have brought in a male pup. You even admit your dog is so 'dominant' it is unable to get along with dogs that don't accept that.

The situation right now is very serious. It only takes one fight for dogs to be killed. One fight, under supervision, you have no hope in hell of pulling two fighting bull-breed males apart if they want to fight. No hope at all. The decision may be taken right out of your hands.

You may not have as many real options as you think you do.

I fear for the safety of your dogs.

Separate now, and understand that even with professional help you may never be able to have these two together.

+ a zillion!

[aussielover]

Is Boss a submissive dog?

genuine question- are many pitbull/amstaff dogs submissive to other dogs? I wouldn't have thought it typical of those particular breeds given their working purpose historically...

I guess you know your dogs best, but having read thru the posts more thoroughly, I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving the two of them alone together without supervision.

Puncture wounds all over Boss does sound quite serious, perhaps it was just the way you worded it?

I've seen some fights that looked and sounded pretty serious but neither dog had even a scratch when it was over.

I still think PTS is too extreme, I'm sure if the prob can't be sorted once you have consulted a professional then a home could be found for razor by himself, or you could rehome Boss.

I've never used K9 pro myself but he has a fantastic reputation herre on DOL and I've used some of his methods such as TOT with great success and always received very good advice online from him when I've had problems, so thats who I would be contacting if I had the probs as you are having

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i am surprised that the title to this thread is "Please Help" but you dont seem to want any advice that is not to your liking.

i think you are playing russian roulette with your dogs and you need to separate them until you can get advice and help from a behaviourist who has extensive experience with bull breeds

Edited August 10, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[casowner]

From first post - They have never fought prior to this and poor Boss is covered in bite puncture wounds etc.

There is two puncture wounds on both side of his neck they are scabs I just went and touched it, they are not deep they are quite small and has a nick above his eye. Other than that this morning he is fine.

Thankyou to those who posted advice and not judgement.

Jackie are you sure that there has only been 1 fight as yesterday he was covered in bite wounds and today has only 2 scabs and a nick, puncture wounds don't normally scab so quickly. I am not trying to sound like a smart a$$ at all but it seemed much more serious yesterday from your initial post. I agree with the separating whilst unsupervised, desexing and a behaviouralist I would also be concerned with the long term behavioural effects on Boss and how he interacts with other dogs in future. Good luck, two same sex bull breed types together is a huge responsibilty as I am sure you are aware.

[Cosmolo]

I think its also important to consider Razor's history with a previous dog- what was the outcome of those fights? Does Razor have history of winning fights? Genuine question. The most serious dog aggression i have ever seen was with dogs who had many opportunities to practice the behaviour, actually engaging in fights.

Do be careful.

[Nekhbet]

I wouldnt desex Razor, I would leave the balance tipped in your household UNLESS he has a testosterone issue. If he has a decent set of testes, started marking trees etc early (like 3-5 months old) then I would say yup, at least try the implant. I have seen testosterone create this over dominant behaviour in dogs predisposed. But saying that old habits die hard and you have a lot of work ahead of you.

For everyone else Boss is NOT a puppy anymore. So Razor and him fighting is not an adult attacking a puppy at all, its an entire adult scuffling with an adolescent in the early stages of full sexual maturity.

Now as for Boss, he smelled funny, he had pain from his surgery and at least annoyance from his stitches, and he snapped back because probably still felt off. You made minimal effort to prevent Razors harrassment of him so he felt he needed to take matters in his own hands, and Razor being dominant put this young upstart in his place DESPITE the fact he may have started it. As soon as I had seen Razor being a dominant turd mounting him, licking etc I would have separated and put Razor back in his box. You need to get better control over Razor it seems, from the start you had a dog that needed to spend more time under your thumb

I dont see a reason to PTS or to assume desexing Razor will make a difference. You need more professional help in areas you may have missed. Meanwhile separate while you are not home and controlled supervised interaction to teach them both what is and is not acceptable behaviour in the house.

ETA if they have healed quickly then it was nothing more then a scuffle. You're right, if they really wanted to do damage there would have been more then shallow punture wounds, hell I get scratches, scrapes and holes from my lot just playing.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Nekhbet

[jackie_a1]

Ok to be honest haven't read through all the replies but from what I've seen let me address some of the questions and assumptions.

Yes I may have been lax with the description of the wounds. By puncture I mean there is a wound where the skin has been taken off. There is missing hair and some skin missing but this morning was a scab. Above his eye is a missing piece of fur as well so I assume it's from a bite. That is puncture to me because I know its from a bite so even though it's a scratch it's still a puncture from a tooth to me. Yes it sounded like a big deal because it was a big deal to me. If it sounded more serious that was because I was concerned because Razor had never attacked the puppy prior.

I didn't research and say they were great together. I found Boss and it was a rescue situation I didn't plan to bring another dog into the house hold until I saw Boss I wasn't looking because I had just put Lucky down. So please don't judge me and think I went out and looked specifically for this breed let alone dog.

And to the comment regarding me not wanting advice bull crap straight out. I've taken everything into account including making it clear they were separate today if not able to be supervised. They were kept inside all day and no incidents. My friend bathed Boss and since then Razor has taken no interest in him. The vet said that Bosses wounds weren't cause for worry they just need not be scratched at. Because the skin is healing over and if he continues to scratch will open the wound.

To the people who suggested it may be the smell spot on. The vet also said sometimes if bitches on heat have been in prior to Boss he may carry the smell and it may arouse Razor into the mating behaviour. Explains the mounting etc.

I am still getting Raze desexed and am going to research a few trainers.

Now I will go back and try to re read the posts make some clarity of your insults.

[jackie_a1]

Nekhbet just read your post and thankyou.

Well the situation was I heard the fight and came out and split it up. I didn't see Raze annoying Boss or otherwise I would have told him straight away to leave the puppy alone. When I catch him humping I always tell him to stop but he only had started once Boss got brought home. It wasn't too much at first maybe once a day I caught him mounting but before yesterday the day before that he seemed to be sniffing him and taking a little more interest in his scent. I would watch him but he wouldn't mount just sniff his backside and his tummy look around then sit down. But I have witnessed him mounting him so I assumed that's what he was doing which he was. But the few times I saw him get humped Boss just stood there then by that time I have already reprimanded Razor so I haven't seen Boss react.

No denying Razor has dominance issues. I know this. In saying this to clear this up. When I say Razor is dominant is that he does not hump or growl or ever behave like that with other dogs. I mean when he greets dogs he is dominant. High tail flag, hackles up, ears pricked forward and very alert. He walks over to the dog all the above signs sniffs them and that is it. That is what I mean he is dominant I have never met a dog question this. As in I have never met a dog bite him or growl etc. Once they greet he is happy as long as the dog isn't overly excitable barking at him snapping at him. Razor has never displayed any aggressive behaviour to ANY dog OTHER than Lucky (my deceased dog) his litter mate and now Boss (who also lives with him.) He has met another entire male dog (another dolers german shepard) and they walked and interact together fine off and on leash.

I will leave the professional opinion to the behaviourist but I do realise he has aggression issues by no means am I in denial.

[minxy]

No one insulted you. I'm sure when you reread the posts you will see that people were trying to suggest the best possible solutions for you. No one would do that if they weren't trying to help.