Please Help

[jackie_a1]

Ok so here is the quick run down before I post.

Razor is my bullmastiff cross pitbull he is a male entire four years old. I bought him from a pet shop (bom bom don't worry I know) and he was sold to me originally as a bullmastiff cross aussie bulldog but upon further scrutiny the owner told me his breed and said he didn't advertise them as the actual breed because he didn't want to 'put buyers off?' ANYWAYS. When Razor was a puppy in the pet shop he was growling at his litter mate whilst eating and his litter mate was timid and scared so I chose Razor as I thought he was the dominant dog and I did not want the scared timid puppy who seemingly was the runt.

Continuation he is a great dog loving very social boy loves dogs and my cats (well he is terrified of my cats) and gets on well with other dogs so long as its established he is dominant and I have not met one dog challenge this. Anyway my point is he is a great all round dog.

But I came home from work today to hear yelping and fighting I went outside and told Razor off as he had just attacked Bossington. Bossington is my american stafford cross pitt and he is six and a half months old and he was desexed eight days or so ago. Now the problem is as soon as I brought Boss back from the vet Razor kept mounting and licking him and continues to do so. They have never fought prior to this and poor Boss is covered in bite puncture wounds etc. It was not a serous attack but I know it will escalate as Boss begins to grow and realise he doesn't have to cop it. Prior to Boss'es desexing they have not fought, Razor has never tried to mount him and there has not been any problems. I brought Boss home to keep Razor company as he was extremely depressed having lpst Lucky and is very dog orientated.

So here's my question.

Would desexing Razor help with any of his behavioural issues? I don't care I'm happy to desex him regardless if it works or not. However I need a solution for this. Razor and Lucky used to fight quite alot (both entire males BOTH competing for top dog) However Boss is not dominant quite submissive and there is no questioning Razor is Boss so?

Boss and Razor both get sufficient exercise (except for days I'm too tired) they get a minimum two hours a day, on the flirt pole, then at the park, then swimming. I find that exercising helps with 'some' of the aggression but I cannot always manage to exercise them and need to know there will not be any tiffs.

If Razor does not improve after desexing his options are scarce.

No flaming also I need advice not lectures.

Tah in advance.

[Greytmate]

Desexing might take some of the fire out of his temperament. But he will not change his learned habits unless you train him.

I would separate the dogs, and consult a behaviourist.

[Dame Aussie]

Why would you get flamed? No flaming here

I would desex him. Whilst it may not fix the problem, it's worth a chance, and I imagine it would be easier to keep two desexed males rather than one of each, especially when neither had behavioural problems before now.

He isn't an old dog and has finished developing so there wouldn't be too many downsides to desexing, so I'd give it a go.

Good luck!

ETA: Just saw GMs' post and I agree! Seperating them until you've fixed the problem, through whatever means, would be sensible.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Aussie3

[Cosmolo]

I would desex, separate when you can not directly supervise and intervene if needed and contact a behaviourist.

When Razor started mounting Boss, what did you do? How does Boss respond to the mounting?

[persephone]

Boss probably smelt very odd after being at the vets, and was probably showing a bit different posture/behaviour due to teh anaesthetic after effects... - that may well have started teh mounting/nipping

seperate them, and get professional advice .

[OSoSwift]

I would try the implant Suprlorin to see if that may help, however I would also seperate and consult an expert.

If it was me I wouldn't have had two males, but there is no changing that now.

I have lived with bitches that wanted to kill each other and had to be seperated until one passed from old age. It is really hard work and they can never be trusted and you can never make mistakes, Get onto it ASAP

[jackie_a1]

Very hard to separate them as my yard is not big enough to give them each sufficient room, plus Boss would become distressed because he loves his mate.

My reaction to Razor's humping was to discipline him immediately with a stern no and he quickly gets off. Boss just stands there and takes it. But I think lately he is getting irritated and starting to snap and that's whats triggering the fights.

[rotts4ever]

Desexing might take some of the fire out of his temperament. But he will not change his learned habits unless you train him.

I would separate the dogs, and consult a behaviourist.

I agree might settle him a little but at four years probably will not change his behaviour much.

Over the years I have dogs that have been desexed late and still try and mount my bitches when they are in season. I have also had dogs that try and hump other dogs when they have a wound or have had an op. I have even had a bitch that tries and humps anything that smells different after an operation. Try separating them until the stitches come out and then wash to get rid of any blood smell etc and then only let them run together while your there to keep an eye on to observe how they are interacting.

Dogs do strange things with different smells I wash a lot of dogs that as soon as their mate has a bath they try to hump and end up in an argument. You need to get on top of it now because even though it might be starting off as excitement over the smell etc it will probably esculate into something more if you don't nip it in the bud now. It could also be a bit of dominating behaviour. I have a male that will try and hump younger dogs, putting them in their place so I have to let him know it's not acceptable.

I run my male Rottweilers together but only when I am home and never when there is a bitch in season or when they are eating etc

Good Luck

[Cordelia]

They have never fought prior to this and poor Boss is covered in bite puncture wounds etc. It was not a serous attack

It was pretty serious if puncture wounds were the result.

I'd put him to sleep but if that isn't an option, I'd be seperating them unless under direct supervision and get a behaviourist involved immediately..

[Tatelina]

My reaction to Razor's humping was to discipline him immediately with a stern no and he quickly gets off. Boss just stands there and takes it. But I think lately he is getting irritated and starting to snap and that's whats triggering the fights.

Experienced dog people question for you:

Is this the thing to do?

I'd put him to sleep but if that isn't an option...

Why so?

[_PL_]

Boss probably smelt very odd after being at the vets, and was probably showing a bit different posture/behaviour due to teh anaesthetic after effects... - that may well have started teh mounting/nipping

seperate them, and get professional advice .

I agree on both points. Sometimes dogs react so strangely to the hospital smell.

And yes, professional help before it gets worse.

[persephone]

IMO- dogs should not attack a puppy - even if the adult was excited/confused by the strange smell/behaviour - it should have only been temporary.

With both dogs being bull breeds, the power they have/will have, and the fact they are fighting now .. .you really would benefit from experienced professional help. I don't believe this is something you can 'fix' without support....and you may not ever be able to run these two safely together

May I suggest you get in touch urgently with K9 pro LINK HERE He is a member of D O L and is very experienced in these sorts of matters.

I hope you can get a happy resolution, and have two settled boys

[jackie_a1]

Thanks Pers.

Tatelina please enlighten me as to why it is not the experienced dog handler thing to do? I do not tolerate humping in my household PERIOD. Under NO circumstances is humping allowed in my house regardless of what is humping or being humped.

Cordelia Razor weighs forty kilos and Boss is half his size. If Razor was trying to damage he would have done alot more. Razor is used to fighting with a seventy kilo dane cross mastiff so when he attacked Boss he does not decipher difference. When Lucky and Razor would fight it would be serious by which I mean there was intention and they were very hard to break up. There were many other contributing factors also but the fighting never resembled what is happening to Razor and Boss.

Whilst Razor still did attack Boss it was not severe nor do I think it was means for euthanasia. I like to think I know my dogs and breed very well. Euthanasia for Razor will only come if he attacks without provocation a human or another animal WHICH he has not done in my four years of owning him. A fight for dominance or excitement is a very different occurrence ESPECIALLY seeing as its a one time occurrence which I am trying my best to amend.

Now in stating this it wasn't a fully fledged attack where in both canines were aggressive simply because once I came oustside and called Razor's name sternly he backed off immediately and went to his bed. When Lucky and Razor fought I would hose both of them still didn't break it up. To some of you this might be terms for euthanasia but I know my dogs and I know it's simply Razor being dominant.

Now I'm not retarded I do realise this may escalate which is why I'm trying to fix this as soon as possible. There hasn't been another fight since, but I will not be home today so I will se what happens when I get home from tafe.

I will book Raze in for desexing next week anyway I am a responsible dog owner they are my kids. I will do as much as possible before even considering euthanasia ESPECIALLY when I just put down Lucky in Feburary.

[jackie_a1]

Pers sorry just re- read your post.

No no I don't want this thread to get out of hand please. My dogs will live together and are living together happily. If at any stage I think Razor and Boss are not suitable to be living together bet your candy ass I will separate them. BUT one fight will not make me think this. If the fighting continues and grows worse then I will be considering if it is best for them to be separated or live apart etc but if a fight occurs once every few months that is not reason for me to seperate them permanently. They are dogs. Dogs behave like dogs.

Its my decision as a responsible owner when to decide when the situation is too serious. At the moment it isn't a matter that makes me fear for the safety of my dogs. And I hope people aren't assuming this will necessarily get worse. I am doing everything I can to ensure it doesn't. Many dogs have minor fights living in a household together. I tend to not over react.

(edit to write permanently)

Edited August 9, 2010 by jackie_a1

[aussielover]

They have never fought prior to this and poor Boss is covered in bite puncture wounds etc. It was not a serous attack

It was pretty serious if puncture wounds were the result.

I'd put him to sleep but if that isn't an option, I'd be seperating them unless under direct supervision and get a behaviourist involved immediately..

Huh?

That is a bit extreme isn't it?

How about getting professional help first? and then if that doesn't work out- perhaps rehoming to somewhere where he could be the only dog?

[gillybob]

Dogs should never fight.

For any reason, it seems that this isnt the first time this dog has done this.

I would seperate, one in the house one in the yard, if there is no room in the yard.

Desex, but still seperate.

[jackie_a1]

Thanks Aussie I thought so too.

Seems now a days easiest option is to put the dog down, although that might be a recommendable solution for an inexperienced owner I am willing to fix the problem.

[jackie_a1]

And Gilly Razor never actually provoked the attack with Lucky. All he used to do was growl and that was enough to set Lucky off (mind you Lucky was DA when I first rescued him from the pound).

But with Boss I wasn't there to see how it started. But Razor usually just growls and the other dog initiates however because Bossington would never initiate I do think Razor was responsible for the attack.

[gillybob]

I would seperate, then watch body language when they are together.

See what is happening with the younger dog.

[Kavik]

Puncture wounds = serious.

Even though one of mine is DA and can be possessive of bed etc, I have NEVER had a fight which resulted in puncture wounds. Only dust ups which are noise, once or twice a mark on a dog's muzzle.

ETA: I haven't had a dust up with my lot for a long time.

You have two very strong, powerful breeds that will likely not back down if something is started.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Kavik