Should Aggressive Dogs Be Taken To Offleash Parks?

[Diva]

I dislike the use of the word 'deserve' when it comes to dog behaviour. It is sometimes used to justify terrible cruelty.

The dog has learnt that it is beneficial to react in certain ways to certain stimuli. The dog has no control over its training or breeding. Humans have bred or trained the dog to be what it is, the dog has no agenda.

Couldn't agree more. Blaming dogs for what they are seems wrong-headed to me.

The bottom line for me is that we have a responsibility to manage the animals we own so that not only are their needs met but no-one else gets put at risk. It's not a matter of what a dog deserves or misses out on, it's just responsible animal management. There are lots of ways to exercise a dog. It's just that some are more effort for the owner.

Of course all dogs can be agressive to some degree, at some time, in the face of some sort of provocation. Aggression is a natural part of behaviour. But if a dog has a known DA problem, it doesn't belong in a public dog park that I can see.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Diva

[Joel]

I dislike the use of the word 'deserve' when it comes to dog behaviour. It is sometimes used to justify terrible cruelty.

The dog has learnt that it is beneficial to react in certain ways to certain stimuli. The dog has no control over its training or breeding. Humans have bred or trained the dog to be what it is, the dog has no agenda.

Couldn't agree more. Blaming dogs for what they are seems wrong-headed to me.

The bottom line for me is that we have a responsibility to manage the animals we own so that not only are their needs met but no-one else gets put at risk. It's not a matter of what a dog deserves or misses out on, it's just responsible animal management. There are lots of ways to exercise a dog. It's just that some are more effort for the owner.

Of course all dogs can be agressive to some degree, at some time, in the face of some sort of provocation. Aggression is a natural part of behaviour. But if a dog has a known DA problem, it doesn't belong in a public dog park that I can see without the control of the handler being 100%.

+1

**Words in the quote that are italics are where I've added my opinion

[megan_]

Of course it is the owner's fault, but at the end of the day, the dog is the one that either gets to play off-leash or not, based on the merits of its own behaviour, not the owner.

I could rephrase it to, the owner of the dog doesn't deserve to take their dog to an off-leash park, but the owner isn't really missing out on anything.

Some dogs are DA becasue they have weak nerves - nothing to do with the owner.

Some of us owners have inherited abused dogs who would have been great dogs if they hadn't been through hell. We have invested lots of time, money, heart and sould into "fixing" them.

Please don't paint all owners of DA dogs as "not deserving". Touchy subject

[Rach...]

I dislike the use of the word 'deserve' when it comes to dog behaviour. It is sometimes used to justify terrible cruelty.

The dog has learnt that it is beneficial to react in certain ways to certain stimuli. The dog has no control over its training or breeding. Humans have bred or trained the dog to be what it is, the dog has no agenda.

I don't know about the person who 'bred' my dog (I use the term loosely since she is BYB before I knew any better) but I know my girl was socialized like crazy from day 1 with other dogs and I have put a lot of time and effort into training her and getting her to the point where she is now. Yet she will start on dogs for no reason at all, even a dog she has lived with her whole life. I almost scream when I am walking her and I have off lead dogs run up to her, I shouldn't have to muzzle her if I have her under control and walking on a path. If it looks like it will be a tight squeeze to get past the other dogs I will move of the path and ask her to sit so that the other people walking can get past and we wont have any dramas.

In reply to the thread I would not let her offlead where there are other dogs! Its asking for trouble, we own a muzzle so if we have to take her into a situation where we arent sure (our vets waiting room is tiny) we have the option to know she cant cause damage. We went for a 4km bush walk the other weekend and i muzzled her cos I could not see the track ahead of me and didn't know what would be coming around the corner and when we reached a lake where there was other dogs she was allowed to play on lead and muzzled in the shallows she did not react to any of these dogs at all she was just intent on doing her own thing in the water.

My dog has proven she can do damage to another dog (my own) so we take a lot of precautions with her, she is given off lead runs because being a heeler her energy level does not diminish very easily. She loves being able to hoon around in the field near our house, which we can only go off lead in at the moment because it isnt summer. Soon the snakes will be out and I will have to walk her at ridiculous times or just do lots of on lead walking which does not tire her out at all.

My girl is all guts and won't back down for anything, I love her to no end! But I know being aggressive isnt nice for her cos she gets so stressed at times. She still deserves to be able to have fun and be a dog which is running around and doing zoomies and being with us out and about.

[DerRottweiler]

Of course it is the owner's fault, but at the end of the day, the dog is the one that either gets to play off-leash or not, based on the merits of its own behaviour, not the owner.

I could rephrase it to, the owner of the dog doesn't deserve to take their dog to an off-leash park, but the owner isn't really missing out on anything.

Some dogs are DA becasue they have weak nerves - nothing to do with the owner.

Some of us owners have inherited abused dogs who would have been great dogs if they hadn't been through hell. We have invested lots of time, money, heart and sould into "fixing" them.

Please don't paint all owners of DA dogs as "not deserving". Touchy subject

Too right.

I should have phrased what I was trying to say differently.

It could be the dogs genetics (no fault of its own) could be its upbringing/lack of training (again, no fault of its own).

[prplhydra]

thanks, crisovar, for this contribution. I've been reading all the "absolutely no!" responses and despairing just a little.

Most dogs benefit from some regular off-leash time and in an increasingly urbanized world, with diminishing backyard sizes but steady rates of dog ownership, we need to be a little less 'absolute' and a lot more flexible about access to public spaces.

Kudos to all dog owners who act like the owner in the OP – taking care of their dog whilst being respectful of others.

If they behave like the owner in the OP what is the problem? They went when no one else was there, they left when someone arrived. They probably did look peeved, as they no doubt have difficulty finding a park that is empty that they can use.

All dogs deserve the opportunity to exercise.

[Maddy]

Please don't paint all owners of DA dogs as "not deserving". Touchy subject

This.

My dog is a victim of her own (predatory) instincts, not poor ownership.

If I could reliably train her to be safe with other dogs, I'd be out doing that right now but the fact is, in some cases, unless you can be 100% sure that the training could change an instinctual behaviour, you just can't risk it (and that doesn't make me a bad owner, it makes me a realistic owner who's accepted the responsibility of a DA dog and is doing the best by the dog to ensure safety of everyone concerned).

That said, I've had "friendly" dogs jumping all over Kiff at dog parks and the majority of that behaviour is not friendly at all- a lot of people see "aggressive" as only the overtly aggressive, not the small, malign behaviours that actually lead to fights.

I'd guess a vast majority of problems with dog parks would be resolved if owners were actually honest about their own dog's behaviour.

Edited to correct typo

Edited August 10, 2010 by Hardy's Angel

[Staranais]

That said, I've had "friendly" dogs jumping all over Kiff at dog parks and the majority of that behaviour is not friendly at all- a lot of people see "aggressive" as only the overtly aggressive, not the small, malign behaviours that actually lead to fights.

I'd guess a vast majority of problems with dog parks would be resolved if owners were actually honest about their own dog's behaviour.

Yes. There are so many variables when you are dealing with aggression, and what one person considers DA, another will not. Sure, some dogs are undeniably DA. But most dogs will show some signs of aggression in some situations, it just depends how far the other dog pushes them.

I'd personally rather share a large dog park with a well trained, well controlled DA dog that stayed in its own corner of the park with its owner and minded its own business, than the "friendly", pushy, uncontrolled dog that is going to run up to us & jump all over my dog.

[BMAK]

I don't really care if DA dogs miss out.

That's what they get for being DA, there are plenty of other places to exercise your dog.

My dog is dominant, but he is a loner, he won't go up to other dogs, he just spends his time marking the park. If a dog comes up to him, he is fine, so long as the dog doesn't show any dominance.

He was attacked out of the blue recently, he defended himself and pinned/bit the aggressor, who then ran away to its owner. The owner of the other dog blamed me and left......others at the park agreed that I was not at fault.... but had my dog the evil Rottweiler mauled the other dog, guess who gets put down? I'd rather not have my dog hurt another dog, even in self defense.

sorry but i think you have it all wrong !

We have to understand that there are many different types of dog aggression,

your dog must be dog aggressive if he has a go at another dog for showing dominance

i can say the same about my boy, any dominant dog he will have a snap at thats "dog aggression" he is happy to sniff aswell and ignore others. but im sure you wouldnt want your dog to miss out on outings no animal deserves to miss out on leash free runs at all.

yes you can do other things like structured walks, backyard games, walking on lead but if you have the opportunity of an area that isnt occupied by other dogs and is fenced off i believe they have every right too have a run offlead but must have constant suppervision.

my dog is an great obedient dog at home and in the trials in no words is he perfect but i do believe he deserves some freedom but it must be controlled

it isnt the dogs fault either that they are dog aggressive its ours the handlers hands down.

[Maddy]

it isnt the dogs fault either that they are dog aggressive its ours the handlers hands down.

Again, it isn't necessarily anyone's fault that DA occurs and certainly not "hands down" always the handler's fault either- unless you happen to be aware of some training method that completely eliminates instinctive behaviours that others could be using to make their dogs safe?

[Greytmate]

it isnt the dogs fault either that they are dog aggressive its ours the handlers hands down.

Again, it isn't necessarily anyone's fault that DA occurs and certainly not "hands down" always the handler's fault either- unless you happen to be aware of some training method that completely eliminates instinctive behaviours that others could be using to make their dogs safe?

Yes, people need to realise that breeding has a huge effect on temperament.

Whether we are talking about natural tendencies being heightened in some breeds, or faults due to careless breeding in any sort of dog.

The handler has a responsibility to manage the dog to prevent it causing harm, but the problem may not be their fault at all.

[Kavik]

It is not necessarily anyone's fault.

Goodness knows I did all I could with the knowledge I had to fix my dog's DA. Possibly could have gottten her considerably better if I knew then what I know now.

Regardless of why they are DA, DA= less priveleges such as the loss of the privelege to run off lead at a dog park with other dogs around. Even if yours is very well trained, most dogs at dog parks are not well behaved but rude and in your face. Really not fair on anyone including DA dog to put them in that situation.

[Staranais]

it isnt the dogs fault either that they are dog aggressive its ours the handlers hands down.

Again, it isn't necessarily anyone's fault that DA occurs and certainly not "hands down" always the handler's fault either- unless you happen to be aware of some training method that completely eliminates instinctive behaviours that others could be using to make their dogs safe?

Yes, people need to realise that breeding has a huge effect on temperament.

Whether we are talking about natural tendencies being heightened in some breeds, or faults due to careless breeding in any sort of dog.

The handler has a responsibility to manage the dog to prevent it causing harm, but the problem may not be their fault at all.

And sometimes the handler adopts or inherits a dog that already has aggression issues. Whether they were genetic or learned, they're still not the fault of the current handler.

[BMAK]

Yes, people need to realise that breeding has a huge effect on temperament.

Whether we are talking about natural tendencies being heightened in some breeds, or faults due to careless breeding in any sort of dog.

The handler has a responsibility to manage the dog to prevent it causing harm, but the problem may not be their fault at all.

i totally agree breeding is apart of it most deffinately an example is my boy, but because i didnt know how to handle his aggression is got worse then what it could have been. stupid mistake on my part for not going with a dog breeder where the pedigree was known dont get me wrong there can be many lovely dogs x breeds etc out there

but i just have to look at my other dog from pedigree lines to see that i should have gone with the same line as she has a lovely temp

im not saying its there fault they are aggressive no way but its because we dont stop it or know how to handle them its our fault yes we can try thats the best we can do, if someone knows how to stop DA do share (i would love the dog whisperer to come and resolve my problem)

but dont take my hands down as every dog handler, im saying we could stop if we knew how and sometimes we make the dogs more aggressive by our behaviour

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Here is something I wrote for the Doggie Rescue magazine last year, on Dog Parks.

DOG_PARKS.pdf

[Maddy]

but because i didnt know how to handle his aggression is got worse then what it could have been.

That may be the situation in your case but in some breeds (for varying reasons or purposes) DA is more likely and where it is present, it often cannot be safely resolved, regardless of the handler's skill.

I could spend years learning to become a dog trainer but that knowledge simply can't outdo hundreds of years of breeding to chase (and kill) small, fluffy things or (in the case of livestock guardians) the instinct to harm strange dogs that come within range of its "flock".

The best you can do with these dogs is safely manage what you have, rather than trying to change a natural behaviour because the reality is, most of these dogs will never be 100% reliable, especially in unpredictable situations like dog parks.

[Aidan3]

What sort of off-leash park? This is an off-leash park:

There are no other dogs in the video, but there are other dogs there. One of the things I like about this place is that there is plenty of room. Typically my Golden will go and greet other dogs and by some indeterminate communication (or extraordinarily good luck) he stops them approaching my GSD. If we don't have any room or Django isn't with us, I have her heel. If they really don't get the message that we're not interested in greeting, then she might bark which I think is perfectly reasonable. If they have a problem with this (has not happened in an off-leash area), then whose dog really has the problem?

[aussielover]

Here is something I wrote for the Doggie Rescue magazine last year, on Dog Parks.

Thanks Dogmad!

[Odin-Genie]

Here is something I wrote for the Doggie Rescue magazine last year, on Dog Parks.

Good article dogmad. It might be worthwhile getting it published in North Shore Advocate as well. I think general people need to know about dog park rules.

[sas]

it isnt the dogs fault either that they are dog aggressive its ours the handlers hands down.

Again, it isn't necessarily anyone's fault that DA occurs and certainly not "hands down" always the handler's fault either- unless you happen to be aware of some training method that completely eliminates instinctive behaviours that others could be using to make their dogs safe?

Yes, people need to realise that breeding has a huge effect on temperament.

Whether we are talking about natural tendencies being heightened in some breeds, or faults due to careless breeding in any sort of dog.

The handler has a responsibility to manage the dog to prevent it causing harm, but the problem may not be their fault at all.

I hear you!

I reccomend people read Temple Grandins book - Animals in Translation - she talks about Rapist Roosters....Well they were actually Rapist Murdering Roosters!

This was at a commercial egg laying farm where farmers where breeding for certain traits and next thing you know they have accientaly bred in mental instability.....Roosters that would rape then hens and then kill them.

They fixed it by removing the rapist mudering roosters and over the generations they get more stability....but shows how easy it is to stuff up temperament when you turn a blind eye to it or make excuses for it.

Obviously to the Farmers the temperament was not even important because they're breeding animals to produce eggs.....but then they discovered it did matter....in unexpected ways.

Temple also touches on emotional problems in mainly white animals such as Albinos and other animals who are mostly white that have pink noses and/or blue eyes in combination with being mainly white.

Edited August 11, 2010 by sas