A Bit Sad..(for Pups Sake)

[Adza]

Hi All,

I am very new here considering my pup has only been with us for 4 days now. We rescued the rottie x from rspca and brought her home Tuesday. I am completely in love with her and despite having kennel cough I thought that would be the only problem for now.

Tahli is over 9 weeks now, don't know her background only that her and 3 others were surrendered after 4 weeks or so.

Well today my partner and I noticed when sitting down, her front legs shake a bit. After that her paws seem pretty weak while walking. She isn't in pain and I checked her legs and paws for any signs of injury but she didn't seem to bothered. She still runs around a bit like pups do and plays with her toys and seems all too happy and not bothering her. A friend came over for the first time to see her and by the way she was saying what could be wrong freaked me out even more so I rang a 24 hr emergency vet and said to bring her in that's ok.

Got there, filled out a form and told me even though it's not an emergency I'd have to pay $195 which I'm fine with money is no issue to me when it comes to my family. One lady came out and said I'll take a quick look at her and said it's abnormal. She said to book a consultation with a specialist and go from there. I don't know what to think she didn't give me any indication what it is.

After speaking to some people suggested I take her back to rspca and see what they say. I am staying positive and will do anything for Tahli if it means this doesn't affect her quality of life.

I just cannot sleep thinking about this.. but I have been reading as much as I can about weak paws and tremors and majority say it's pano. If that's what it is, I'd rather that than put her through surgery. I was just thinking it's like a growth spurt or something, now not so sure.

So tomorrow morning first thing I will go to the vet there to see what they say. I'm doing well not to get upset in front of her but can't help to cry on my own.

Has anyone got any stories like this or how you got through it?

[Diva]

If it is panno I understand that while it is painful, it's also self-limiting and will resolve as the pup matures. So not too bad a diagnosis if that is what it is. Try not to worry too much, whatever it is she is lucky you are there to help her through it.

[Adza]

Thanks Diva, just taken aback by it as was totally unexpected I hope the lady had no idea making me feel it's the worst case scenario without taking xrays or anything.

Will keep updated once I find out tomorrow. She is going to get major cuddles tonight

[Diva]

Just a thought, but under the 'general dog discussion' thread there are breed sub-forums. Bound to be a Rottie one and although Tahli is a cross if you explain her history in there you might get some more specific advice. My breed doesn't seem to get panno, but I know it's not uncommon.

[spottychick]

She is adorable! Sorry I can't help you with this tho. Talking to the rotty people is a good idea. I hope you find some good info and maybe try a different vet on Monday. Doesn't sound like that one was particularly helpful. That's a steep price to charge just to tell someone you don't know what's wrong!!!

Let us know how this all goes. Give Tahli a big smooch from me :D

[k9angel]

First of all I want to congratulate you on deciding to adopt a shelter puppy. Good on YOU!

By the sounds of it she has found herself a loving and caring home and is in the best of hands.

I wouldn't worry too much, tho I know that is easier said than done.

She is only young and the chances are, she will most likely grow out of it.

I would also be getting a second opinion from another vet before rushing off to a specialist.

All the best and please keep us updated.

PS

She looks adorable, give her a big smooch and hug from me. :D

[redangel]

Hope all goes well for your little puppy. Could it be calcuim issues/growth spurt? With an unknown care history is this being considered? I am not familiar with panno....hoping for favorable results.

[Adza]

I didn't get to see rspca today, they were booked out.

The lady was really good asked a lot of questions and indicated it could be due to not being fed correctly when growing up can cause abnormalities in the legs but they grow out of it. She asked if she's in a bad state as in pain or not eating or any signs of discomfort and I said no she's been running around a bit and seems happy to me, still has appetite etc.

Made the appointment for tomorrow morning. My partner said her legs were good this morning and hardly noticeable, until she got a bit active they played up again.

Trying to keep her calm, and getting sleep often and trying not to let her run around...hard when in a playful mood!

[Tilly]

I found this article ... the bits I have found seems to look at diet as being helpful.

Limping - Pano

Help! My dog is limping! Panosteitis & HOD

by Patricia Long and Lisa Allen, Molly Bass, Laurie Brandt, Sue Brightman, Cathy Burlile, Kathryn Butterfield-Davis, Sue Clawson, Toni Davies, Sue German, Melissa (Green) Zebley, Ruth Reynolds, Wanda Tait, Bob Torstenson, S.F.V. Edited by Dr. Kathy Berge, DVM

Limping can be caused by several problems associated with bones and bone growth. The most common is panosteitis or "pano." This is also referred to as growing pains and wandering leg lameness. Pano is characterized by shifting leg lameness; one leg will heal, then another may be affected. There are no long-term ill-effects from pano.

Pano is associated with large breed dogs and usually occurs in dogs 5 to 12 months of age, although it has been found in dogs as old as 5 years. It most commonly affects males by a ratio of 4:1. Females are most often affected around their first heat. It is possible that the condition is partially genetic since so many German Shepherd Dogs are prone to it. However, many other factors have been associated with pano: diet, viral diseases, autoimmune problems, hyperestrogen, and vascular problems. In other words, no one knows what causes it.

Pano is a process in which the fatty marrow inside the long bones degenerates and is replaced by bone cells. As the blood flow inside the bone becomes congested, the tissue covering the inside of the bone (endosteum) and the tissue covering the outside of the bone (periosteum) can also become involved. Eventually the new bone cells are resorbed, and the marrow is restored. This buildup of bone cells can sometimes be seen as darker patches on the bone in a radiograph. Once a bone has been affected, it is unlikely to be affected again - but remember, each leg has 3 long bones.

The dog normally limps on the affected limb and only rarely holds the limb to prevent any weight from being placed on it. It is often easily diagnosed with an x-ray; the lesion shows as the tell-tale dark patch on the bone. Pressure applied on the bone elicits a pain response. Currently, treatment consists of reduction of the percentage of protein in the dog's diet and pain management through the use of buffered aspirin, Ascriptin, or Rimadyl, or steroids in severe cases. Restricting the dog's activity has not been shown to have an effect on the healing process.

Like many problems, pano may be difficult to diagnose. The dark patches may not appear on the x-rays. The lameness may not shift to another leg. It can be extremely frustrating with many bouts of radiographs. Assuming that the limping is caused by pano can help delay diagnosis of other more severe problems. Never assume that limping is caused by pano without having it properly diagnosed.

The best thing that an owner of a growing pup can do is to choose a high quality dog food, or a carefully planned natural diet, which does not have too much calcium, nor too high a percentage of protein. Recent studies show that the balance of calcium and phosphorus is the most important dietary consideration for a growing puppy followed closely by the amounts of protein and fat. Most breeders recommend a maximum of 26% protein and others like to see the pup switched to an adult formula by the age of 4 months. Diet may be the single most important aspect of puppy development (especially when coupled with exercise) under an owner's control. Listen carefully to your breeder's recommendations, they usually know what suits their lines best.

The on-line Berner-L has a wealth of experience with panosteitis.

Laurie Brandt's Crusader was treated with aspirin and Adequan injections to help increase the fluid in the joints. His protein intake was reduced to 14% until he was 2 years old, after which it was increased to 20%. He responded well to the treatment. [Ed Note: Adequan is used for joint problems, and its use for pano seems questionable.]

Melissa Green's Aylen went lame in one leg at 10 months. One vet took radiographs and diagnosed an injured cruciate ligament. A second vet, a board certified radiologist using the same radiographs, diagnosed pano. The lameness went away in a little over a week. Over the next several months Aylen would occasionally go lame in another leg, and then recover in a little over a week.

Molly Bass advises vitamin C supplements, which many list members recommend for growing puppies. There is no scientific evidence to show that this will help, but there are a great deal of experiences to show that it may indeed benefit the joints [Ed. Note: see Steve Dudley's post in digest 131 on vitamin C, although I'm not sure it would help specifically with pano, which is not a joint disease]. Molly advises list members who have dogs with pano to reduce protein and fat intake by switching to an adult food, reduce all exercise to a minimum, give vitamin C or Ester-C - 1000 mg/day, and give Ascriptin 1x - 3x daily for pain.

Sue German's Strykker was troubled with pano and the only thing that helped him was steroids. Codi received Ascriptin and rubdowns with Absorbine liniment, which was palliative at best. But when Garth had pano, Sue used a formula from Marina Zacharias for 2 months that worked very well. The formula contained boneset, blue vervain, comfrey, fenugreek, goldenseal, nettle, mullein, rose hip, and sarsaparilla. Sue says that what's really interesting is that Star, so far, has had no symptoms of pano and she's been on the BARF diet since Sue got her. She also has been growing steadily with no big growth spurts like the boys.

Toni Davies had an 11.5 month old female with pano.

Sue Clawson suggested that crating an affected dog has not been seen to help. She advised Ascriptin as being easier on the dog's stomach than buffered aspirin. Sue hasn't seen any cases of pano in her dogs since she switched to Sensible Choice Large & Giant Breed Puppy food, which is 36% protein, low fat, and a precise balance of calcium and phosphorus.

Bob Torstenson's Sasha was examined for the possibility of OCD. That was ruled out, and pano was tentatively diagnosed. Since it was already getting better, it was decided not to subject her to x-rays. It was all right about the time of her first heat cycle.

Pat Long told of a young German Shepherd Dog with severe back leg lameness which looked like a horrible case of hip dysplasia. It was diagnosed as pano and within 4 months all signs of problems vanished.

Wanda Tait's Brigitte was initially diagnosed with HOD. Devastated, Wanda took Brigitte for a second opinion. Pano was conclusively diagnosed and treatment consisted of rest, reduced plane of nutrition, and an aspirin every other day. Brigitte is still happily bounding along.

Kathryn Butterfield-Davis switched a 3 month old litter of Lab puppies from Nature's Recipe Puppy to a Lamb, Rice & Potato (LR&P) adult dog food. Six of the 10 pups whose owners kept them on the LR&P kibble developed almost debilitating pano. Two of the owners overexercised their pups and the pups could hardly get up. All the puppy owners who had their pups on the LR&P food were told to switch to a quality Lamb & Rice only dog food. Within a day, the pups vastly improved. Kathryn suspects that the LR&P contains parts of the potato with the alkaloid solanine, which aggravates arthritis. Kathryn also felt that, since this was an incredibly fast-growing litter and with so many affected puppies, genetics probably played a large role in the development of pano.

Lisa Allen posted a summary from Canine Orthopedics by Robert Brooks, DVM, M.S. He defines pano as a spontaneous, self-limiting inflammatory disease of the long bones that commonly appears in young, fast-growing dogs. Prognosis is excellent, but lameness may shift to other limbs and be intermittent for several months. He lists contributory causes: transient vascular abnormalities, allergies, metabolic disorders, stress, autoimmune reactions following viral or bacterial infections, first estrus in females, and it has been associated with von Willebrand's disease.

S.F.V.'s 2 year old Simca was recently diagnosed with pano. The limping is sporadic and is triggered by exercise. The vet's recommended treatment is aspirin or Rimadyl.

Ruth Reynolds had pups in 2 litters that experienced symptoms of shifting leg lameness. When she switched their food from a 26% chicken-based protein to a 25% turkey-based protein, and supplemented with vitamin C (1000 mg/day) the problems abated within 2-3 days. One of the pups underwent 3 weeks of steroid treatment before Ruth was notified. Once the dietary change was made, it took about 3 weeks for the pup to recover.

HOD, or hypertrophic osteodystrophy, is another of the growth related problems. It is an inflammation of the growth plates, which is the knobby section at the end of the bones. It is characterized by lameness, "walking on egg shells," and can be accompanied by depression, weight loss, and fever. The joints may be swollen and feel hot. It occurs most often in young (2 to 8 months of age) large breed dogs, and occurs equally in both males and females. It usually appears on x-rays as soft tissue swelling in the area of the growth plates.

There is no known cause and, like almost all of the growth-related bone problems, diet is thought to play a part. It has not been shown to be genetic but heredity cannot be ruled out.

There is no known treatment other than pain management. Ascriptin or buffered aspirin is usually prescribed. Mild cases usually resolve with no lasting ill effects. However, in the rare case of severe HOD, permanent damage to the bone joints can result in limb deformities.

Experience with HOD on the berner list is thankfully limited. Cathy Burlile posted a discussion of HOD from Dr. Fred S. Jacobs DVM (CA, USA) in which he recommended an aggressive treatment with diminishing doses of cortisone-type drugs in order to avoid the limb deformities caused by the severe cases. He also uses a drug called Dyprone to help reduce any fever. Sue Brightman posted a summary of the October 1995 Alpenhorn article by Elena Smith in which a similar course of bed rest and diminishing doses of prednisone are recommended for treatment.

References: Small Animal Orthopedics, Marvin L. Olmstead, Mosby 1995. Veterinary Medical Terminology, Dawn E. Christenson, W. B. Saunders 1997. The Merck Veterinary Manual, 7th Ed, Merck & Co. 1991. Saunders Manual of Small Animal Practice, W. B. Saunders 1994.

[MelissaS]

She is beautiful.Such a cute pup

Keeping all paws and fingers crossed for her.

Good on you for being such good parents to her, she is a lucky pup.

[Adza]

good news, 2 vets had a look at her today, one being an ortho specialist and said that they have both seen it plenty of times in pups at this stage, most likely more than other vets seeing the amount of dogs that come into rspca.

She should grow out of it in 3 months or less once the body catches up with the growth. It's that the ligaments are weak to support the body and is due to diet once being born and not being with the mother for long can cause this problem, also the bone does seem as though its grown fast. They said can do xray but will show the same thing.

I am just relieved they have seen this before and nothing to worry about. Only said if she was in pain it would be a more serious problem.

Have to limit her exercise and just keep an eye on them.

The diet she is on now is fine

;)

I am the happiest woman alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sallyandtex]

good news, 2 vets had a look at her today, one being an ortho specialist and said that they have both seen it plenty of times in pups at this stage, most likely more than other vets seeing the amount of dogs that come into rspca.

She should grow out of it in 3 months or less once the body catches up with the growth. It's that the ligaments are weak to support the body and is due to diet once being born and not being with the mother for long can cause this problem, also the bone does seem as though its grown fast. They said can do xray but will show the same thing.

I am just relieved they have seen this before and nothing to worry about. Only said if she was in pain it would be a more serious problem.

Have to limit her exercise and just keep an eye on them.

The diet she is on now is fine

;)

I am the happiest woman alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey, good on you for rescuing the pup.

I have a kelpie X female, gorgeous girl now 10 months.

We have been worried about limping, seemed to go from paw to paw, for quite a few months.

Went to RSPCA vet, and he said due to poor nutrition in the womb, her joints aren't great.

She didn't improve just on the good dry food for puppy's, but after taking JOINT GUARD on her food we saw an improvement after about 4 weeks! Got the advice off DOL.

I also limit her time with rough play, not going to her favourite dog park but, she still has fun meeting other dogs along our walks.

GOOD LUCK!

[Adza]

good news, 2 vets had a look at her today, one being an ortho specialist and said that they have both seen it plenty of times in pups at this stage, most likely more than other vets seeing the amount of dogs that come into rspca.

She should grow out of it in 3 months or less once the body catches up with the growth. It's that the ligaments are weak to support the body and is due to diet once being born and not being with the mother for long can cause this problem, also the bone does seem as though its grown fast. They said can do xray but will show the same thing.

I am just relieved they have seen this before and nothing to worry about. Only said if she was in pain it would be a more serious problem.

Have to limit her exercise and just keep an eye on them.

The diet she is on now is fine

;)

I am the happiest woman alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey, good on you for rescuing the pup.

I have a kelpie X female, gorgeous girl now 10 months.

We have been worried about limping, seemed to go from paw to paw, for quite a few months.

Went to RSPCA vet, and he said due to poor nutrition in the womb, her joints aren't great.

She didn't improve just on the good dry food for puppy's, but after taking JOINT GUARD on her food we saw an improvement after about 4 weeks! Got the advice off DOL.

I also limit her time with rough play, not going to her favourite dog park but, she still has fun meeting other dogs along our walks.

GOOD LUCK!

Hi Sallyandtex,

Where did you get joint guard? is it safe for a 10 week old? (sorry such a worry wart )

The vet said it's going to get worse before gets better and look bad, but will get there in a few months. Tried to limit her exercise today, but she loves to run it's hard to stop but day by day will be patient. I also try to give them a little massage when resting on my lap. It's hard watching her walk like that

[Animal House]

Information on Joint Guard is here http://www.jointguard.com.au/

Petstock or similar places should have it, or you can buy online through VetShed, VetnPetDirect.

[Diva]

I'm glad it turned out not to be major. It sounds like she has landed on her feet with you

[Bully]

So glad to hear that Tahli is ok and should grow out of it with a good diet

I buy Joint Guard thru Value Vet Products and find them about the cheapest. I bought some last week and it was $64.46 + postage.

Give Tahli a from us. She sounds like a lucky girl to have found you

[Adza]

Just a quick update, Tahli's legs last night were amazingly straight again! looked so much better and stronger, the right still got a big wobbly but couldn't believe the difference. I assume she is starting to grow out of it or it might just come and go.

Going to get this Joint Guard asap. I'll feel better taking her to puppy school now, don't want the weird looks.