Wellington Shire Council In Sale, Gippsland, Victoria

[toy dog]

Hi toy dog, I live in the Wellington Shire and have seen one of the puppy farms just out of Heyfield and I will do all I can to help. PM me if you would like. Cheers Kaye

hi ya pleased to meet you. i will PM you.

[toy dog]

and hello you better put on your flame suit, you are right, this statement

If you look at it like that, this topic has no place in this forum. If it is a PUREBREED DOG FORUM in its entirety, then puppy farms (which produce cross breeds for the most part) have no place here. Although this forum is designed to be about purebred dogs, it also encompasses a lot of other topics.

people who own pedigree dogs in this forum are dog lovers and this is an issue about dogs so it certainly does have a place here because i am trying to get support from fellow dog lovers, what better place to go than right here on DOL.

You putting pigs, chickens and cattle in the same basket is like putting dogs, cats, lizards, spiders, snakes, rats etc in the same basket. People keep rats as pets, yet more people trap and kill them as vermin. I'll take a snippet from wikipedia here...

Livestock (also cattle) refers to one or more domesticated animals raised in an agricultural setting to produce commodities such as food or fibre, or labor. The term "livestock" as used in this article does not include poultry or farmed fish; however the inclusion of these, especially poultry, within the meaning of "livestock" is common.

Livestock generally are raised for subsistence or for profit. Raising animals (animal husbandry) is an important component of modern agriculture. It has been practised in many cultures since the transition to farming from hunter-gather lifestyles.

did they mention canines in this bit i don't see the word canine? they are referring to animals that are raised to supply humans with food that is what they are referring to. so i think you lost that argument.

this is exactly what the councillor said, pigs are more intelligent than dogs but are being farmed too. PIGS supply meat for humans, chooks and cows and whatever, they are all animals being raised on farms to supply the human population, do dogs supply us with meat or food, no.

dogs are here to serve man to be a companion. do you see cows and pigs and chooks living in 1 in 3 households around australia? no. do you see cows, pigs chooks, ferrets having a population exposion so much so, that we have to have shelters to send them too that are overcrowded? no.

i don't understand what you are getting at like the councillor. sure some farmers treat their animals like crap, some treat them good to the end when they get them slaughtered which is necessary for mankind to survive. some farmers i have seen (being brought up on a farm) are the cruelest human beings alive like some of my family. some people (farmers ) end up treating all animals like farm animals and don't end up having a heart. they end up thinking that animal don't feel anything. but not all farmers are like this though. just some i have known for my whole life. some stories i could tell you would make your hair curl. what they've done to dogs mainly!!!

Edited August 10, 2010 by toy dog

[toy dog]

Why is it worse to treat a dog poorly than any other animal? Because we have been conditioned to think that dogs are seperate from other animals

im sorry i had to answer this one, dogs are separate from chooks, pigs, cows and other farmed animals for food for humans! do you have pigs, cows and chooks in your bed on the sofa or in the car???????? some people do have pigs as pets but again, 1 in 3 house holds own a dog so there is no comparison what-so-ever.

still don't know what you are getting at.

Edited August 10, 2010 by toy dog

[Joel]

just because they are bred to feed people does not excuse their poor treatment. Just because somethings offspring is going to be used as a companion doesn't mean that it is any more important than something whos offspring will be used for food.

My point is, i dont think you are going to win this argument with council. Although I dont agree with puppy farms in the slightest, they DO reflect animal farming in general, and I dont see why they would impose rules over one and not the other in regards to the treatment of their animals. And to do it over farmed animals in general would be such a huge step that they think its too much trouble to take. Also, the people running these puppy farms are going to bring up that point and that they are being discriminated against because people have a predisposed idea that dogs are more important than other animals. How are you going to argue this?

Thought I should clarify on something too... (italics is things i have added)

Livestock (also cattle) refers to one or more domesticated animals raised in an agricultural setting to produce commodities such as food or fibre, or labor (food, fibre and labor are just examples of commodities produced through agricultural animal farming). The term "livestock" as used in this article does not include poultry or farmed fish; however the inclusion of these, especially poultry, within the meaning of "livestock" is common.

Livestock generally are raised for subsistence or for profit. Raising animals (animal husbandry) is an important component of modern agriculture. It has been practised in many cultures since the transition to farming from hunter-gather lifestyles.

So, this means that any domesticated animal raised on a 'farm' to produce a commodity (which would be the puppies) for subsistence (i would assume not) OR profit (which is the case) is considered livestock. Which then means that these dogs can be considered livestock.

These are the arguments you're going to face while trying to fight this battle. I don't think you're quite prepared to argue the point far enough. I don't think puppy farms are going to be banned any time soon (unfortunately). The only thing that might happen (and is in the pipeline if i understand correctly) is that stricter guidelines will be put in place. You're not going to get anywhere by having the local council hate you. You want them on your side. At the moment, the people running the puppy farms are on far better terms with the council members than you are. You're not going to get anywhere by abusing them.

But my concern is this (and is the reason I initially posted here): For someone that is so passionate about animal welfare, you are only concerned about one animal (this is a HUGE assumption, but until proven otherwise, ill stick with it). The reason I say this is because there is cruelty going on every day that the average person buys in to (again, I am assuming that you are an 'average person') when they go to the supermarket. Most people dont think about it this way and dont relate their beloved pets to the animals that wind up on their plate. I figured that if I could at least plant a seed of thought in peoples minds through this topic, then maybe I could initiate some change in regards to animal welfare which is not limited to just dogs. I just think its a bit hypocritical for the public to be so up in arms about wrong doing on one part, but to be essentially demanding the same wrongdoings to be done on another.

[Starkehre]

just because they are bred to feed people does not excuse their poor treatment. Just because somethings offspring is going to be used as a companion doesn't mean that it is any more important than something whos offspring will be used for food.

My point is, i dont think you are going to win this argument with council. Although I dont agree with puppy farms in the slightest, they DO reflect animal farming in general, and I dont see why they would impose rules over one and not the other in regards to the treatment of their animals. And to do it over farmed animals in general would be such a huge step that they think its too much trouble to take. Also, the people running these puppy farms are going to bring up that point and that they are being discriminated against because people have a predisposed idea that dogs are more important than other animals. How are you going to argue this?

Thought I should clarify on something too... (italics is things i have added)

Livestock (also cattle) refers to one or more domesticated animals raised in an agricultural setting to produce commodities such as food or fibre, or labor (food, fibre and labor are just examples of commodities produced through agricultural animal farming). The term "livestock" as used in this article does not include poultry or farmed fish; however the inclusion of these, especially poultry, within the meaning of "livestock" is common.

Livestock generally are raised for subsistence or for profit. Raising animals (animal husbandry) is an important component of modern agriculture. It has been practised in many cultures since the transition to farming from hunter-gather lifestyles.

So, this means that any domesticated animal raised on a 'farm' to produce a commodity (which would be the puppies) for subsistence (i would assume not) OR profit (which is the case) is considered livestock. Which then means that these dogs can be considered livestock.

These are the arguments you're going to face while trying to fight this battle. I don't think you're quite prepared to argue the point far enough. I don't think puppy farms are going to be banned any time soon (unfortunately). The only thing that might happen (and is in the pipeline if i understand correctly) is that stricter guidelines will be put in place. You're not going to get anywhere by having the local council hate you. You want them on your side. At the moment, the people running the puppy farms are on far better terms with the council members than you are. You're not going to get anywhere by abusing them.

But my concern is this (and is the reason I initially posted here): For someone that is so passionate about animal welfare, you are only concerned about one animal (this is a HUGE assumption, but until proven otherwise, ill stick with it). The reason I say this is because there is cruelty going on every day that the average person buys in to (again, I am assuming that you are an 'average person') when they go to the supermarket. Most people dont think about it this way and dont relate their beloved pets to the animals that wind up on their plate. I figured that if I could at least plant a seed of thought in peoples minds through this topic, then maybe I could initiate some change in regards to animal welfare which is not limited to just dogs. I just think its a bit hypocritical for the public to be so up in arms about wrong doing on one part, but to be essentially demanding the same wrongdoings to be done on another.

Although you do address some good points and I admire your passion for your beliefs, I believe that we as the public are entitled to be passionate about whichever causes and areas we choose to be passionate about without being critically judged by anyone.

[ash&elar]

just because they are bred to feed people does not excuse their poor treatment. Just because somethings offspring is going to be used as a companion doesn't mean that it is any more important than something whos offspring will be used for food.

My point is, i dont think you are going to win this argument with council. Although I dont agree with puppy farms in the slightest, they DO reflect animal farming in general, and I dont see why they would impose rules over one and not the other in regards to the treatment of their animals. And to do it over farmed animals in general would be such a huge step that they think its too much trouble to take. Also, the people running these puppy farms are going to bring up that point and that they are being discriminated against because people have a predisposed idea that dogs are more important than other animals. How are you going to argue this?

Thought I should clarify on something too... (italics is things i have added)

Livestock (also cattle) refers to one or more domesticated animals raised in an agricultural setting to produce commodities such as food or fibre, or labor (food, fibre and labor are just examples of commodities produced through agricultural animal farming). The term "livestock" as used in this article does not include poultry or farmed fish; however the inclusion of these, especially poultry, within the meaning of "livestock" is common.

Livestock generally are raised for subsistence or for profit. Raising animals (animal husbandry) is an important component of modern agriculture. It has been practised in many cultures since the transition to farming from hunter-gather lifestyles.

So, this means that any domesticated animal raised on a 'farm' to produce a commodity (which would be the puppies) for subsistence (i would assume not) OR profit (which is the case) is considered livestock. Which then means that these dogs can be considered livestock.

These are the arguments you're going to face while trying to fight this battle. I don't think you're quite prepared to argue the point far enough. I don't think puppy farms are going to be banned any time soon (unfortunately). The only thing that might happen (and is in the pipeline if i understand correctly) is that stricter guidelines will be put in place. You're not going to get anywhere by having the local council hate you. You want them on your side. At the moment, the people running the puppy farms are on far better terms with the council members than you are. You're not going to get anywhere by abusing them.

But my concern is this (and is the reason I initially posted here): For someone that is so passionate about animal welfare, you are only concerned about one animal (this is a HUGE assumption, but until proven otherwise, ill stick with it). The reason I say this is because there is cruelty going on every day that the average person buys in to (again, I am assuming that you are an 'average person') when they go to the supermarket. Most people dont think about it this way and dont relate their beloved pets to the animals that wind up on their plate. I figured that if I could at least plant a seed of thought in peoples minds through this topic, then maybe I could initiate some change in regards to animal welfare which is not limited to just dogs. I just think its a bit hypocritical for the public to be so up in arms about wrong doing on one part, but to be essentially demanding the same wrongdoings to be done on another.

Although you do address some good points and I admire your passion for your beliefs, I believe that we as the public are entitled to be passionate about whichever causes and areas we choose to be passionate about without being critically judged by anyone.

This is what i tried to say in the post that i wrote earlier then my net dropped out and when i re-wrote the post i think i forgot to add it back in.

[toy dog]

My point is, i dont think you are going to win this argument with council. Although I dont agree with puppy farms in the slightest, they DO reflect animal farming in general,

under the law yes, they are lumped under animal farming and being a farming area, and councillors being in a farming community naturally they will see this as just an agricultural exercise and have stated so yes.

and I dont see why they would impose rules over one and not the other in regards to the treatment of their animals.

it depends on whether those animals are getting what they need, basic necessaties which the farm i am focusing on, the animals ARE NOT. as proven by visitors to the property taking photos and ALV calling them out which they either try to deny or try to hide to look good.

And to do it over farmed animals in general would be such a huge step that they think its too much trouble to take.

we aren't dealing with all livestock on other farms we are talking about farmed dogs in gippsland, there is already campaigns by ALV to stop the unethical treatment of pigs, battery hens you name it. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DOGS because we are a dog forum who are dog lovers.

Also, the people running these puppy farms are going to bring up that point

yes mate they already have, several times.

and that they are being discriminated against because people have a predisposed idea that dogs are more important than other animals. How are you going to argue this?

hmmm i've already said many times why we are speaking about dogs, haven't i? who's arguing....

Thought I should clarify on something too... (italics is things i have added)

Livestock (also cattle) refers to one or more domesticated animals raised in an agricultural setting to produce commodities such as food or fibre, or labor (food, fibre and labor are just examples of commodities produced through agricultural animal farming). The term "livestock" as used in this article does not include poultry or farmed fish; however the inclusion of these, especially poultry, within the meaning of "livestock" is common.

Livestock generally are raised for subsistence or for profit. Raising animals (animal husbandry) is an important component of modern agriculture. It has been practised in many cultures since the transition to farming from hunter-gather lifestyles.

So, this means that any domesticated animal raised on a 'farm' to produce a commodity (which would be the puppies) for subsistence (i would assume not) OR profit (which is the case) is considered livestock. Which then means that these dogs can be considered livestock.

well you can bold those words you've bolded there but its important what comes after it????? they are referring to farm animals raised, domesticcated animals might be cows, pigs or sheep, they aren't wild are they? they are farmed animals, canines aren't generally raised in an agricultural setting to produce commodities such as food, fibre (meaning sheep) or labour.

dog farms have only popped up in the last 20 years the same time that DD became popular why is that? for MONEY. they are bred for nothing other than for money and then may become a burden on society when they over produce. cows, sheep and pigs, chooks aren't a burden on society. its just common sense this line of thinking?????

These are the arguments you're going to face while trying to fight this battle. I don't think you're quite prepared to argue the point far enough. I don't think puppy farms are going to be banned any time soon (unfortunately).

and yes have debated those points exactly with the councillors for a few years now, prepared to argue the point far enough, how far do you want me to argue??? eh????? you still aren't making much sense.

You're not going to get anywhere by having the local council hate you. You want them on your side.

i don't abuse anyone, i am polite when i talk to councillors, i try and educate them about genetics thats my angle. Council might hate ALV as they have done the hard yards for these poor dogs by actually raiding a number of properties. this is why the farmers and council hate ALV so much because they are stopping them making their thousands of dollars.

At the moment, the people running the puppy farms are on far better terms with the council members than you are. You're not going to get anywhere by abusing them.

tell me something i dont' already know Eric pearce with the late news. the farmers are on better terms with the VETS, the COUNCILLORS and themselves because they are making $ as MONEY TALKS. they aint going to want to listen to anyone trying to close their little money making venture down now are they?

But my concern is this (and is the reason I initially posted here): For someone that is so passionate about animal welfare, you are only concerned about one animal (this is a HUGE assumption, but until proven otherwise, ill stick with it).

joel or whatever your name is, this is a huge assumption!!! i am concerned about dogs because that is my field being a registered breeder of a number of breeds for over 25 years, so why not go on a crusade to try to do something about these farms that cause alot of people distress. why not contribute something towards this cause and try and educate as i go along and try and make people aware of what is going on behind our backs.

The reason I say this is because there is cruelty going on every day that the average person buys in to (again, I am assuming that you are an 'average person') when they go to the supermarket. Most people dont think about it this way and dont relate their beloved pets to the animals that wind up on their plate. I figured that if I could at least plant a seed of thought in peoples minds through this topic, then maybe I could initiate some change in regards to animal welfare which is not limited to just dogs. I just think its a bit hypocritical for the public to be so up in arms about wrong doing on one part, but to be essentially demanding the same wrongdoings to be done on another.

who said anything different, i am not only a dog lover but a lover of all animals so yes, i have also lived on a farm so i have eaten pet chooks, pet ducks, rabbits you name it we didn't go to a supermarket very often we lived off the land. people that tend to not have a connection with what is in a supermarket and what is on a plate is through no fault of their own, people that have never lived on a farm and can't relate ofcourse living in a city all their lives. so what is your point? tell us something we didn't all know.

[Joel]

Although you do address some good points and I admire your passion for your beliefs, I believe that we as the public are entitled to be passionate about whichever causes and areas we choose to be passionate about without being critically judged by anyone.

True, but whether this is realistically achievable is another thing. The problem with being passionate for a cause (and voicing that passion) is that you will, inevitably, be judged (as I have found out recently on here ). If you are prepared for this, then it makes your argumentative power that much stronger. If you are not, then you will be trampled by the people with whom you are arguing.

I want to add, as I think I may have not voiced this part strongly enough and got carried away with other things... I completely applaud you (toy dog) on what you're doing. No change happens without someone bringing the flaws into the spotlight and if everyone fought for animal welfare like you are, then the world would be a much better place.

Do take what I have said into consideration though, as these arguments are what you're likely to face while battling with both the council and the people running these puppy farms. They will compare the treatment of their dogs to the treatment of all other animals which are farmed for their offspring. And generally speaking, although the average person doesn't necessary like it, they are content with the fact because they don't like the alternative (which is either dont eat meat, or pay a higher price for the end product to ensure better welfare for the animals before and during slaughter). I don't think you're going to get anywhere the way you're going (through bombarding council members with letters and abuse) while you're arguing that they should treat dogs differently. The likelihood is, they wont. I look at it like this: If I was running one of those puppy farms and coming up against criticism from you, then I would dig deep enough to find out whether you bought free range meat, eggs etc etc. If you didn't, then your argument becomes weightless, because you are supporting the same sort of farming with a different animal and suggesting that I (the puppy farmer) be descriminated against because of the animal which I am farming. You have to PROVE why puppy farming is worse than regular farming, and relying on that because dogs are seen as companion animals will not cut it IMO.

EDITED TO ADD:

most of what she told me there is a heap of Bull**** so i told her so also telling her most of her statements were very ignorant

I'd say that someone emailing a councilor that is never going to get their way (because its abusive).

Also, just because people dont live on farms does not mean that they can use ignorance as an excuse for not knowing how their food gets on their plate. There is more publicity about it then there is of puppy farms, and yet here we are. Research it.

And the fact that they only do it for money makes no difference legally or ethically. Most businesses are run purely for profit. I dont think a cattle farmer farms cattle because they love it... they do it for $$$.

The reason that the puppy farmers are on the sides of the people who you want on your side is because they brown-nose them. They kiss their ass, because they need them, just like you need them. They know this, and do whatever they can to keep the people that they need on their side, on their side. Maybe you should take a leaf out of their book on that topic.

Also, just because canines haven't been traditionally 'farmed' in an agricultural setting does not mean that they cannot be considered livestock. They are farmed as a commodity, which was the keyword - not labor, sustenance or fibre. Also, canine does not refer to a wild dog. Canine is used to refer to a domesticated dog (it may be used to refer to ANY dog, domesticated or otherwise, but I was under the impression that canine is used to describe a domesticated dog. If someone could clarify, that would be great ).

Edited August 10, 2010 by Joel

[Starkehre]

Although you do address some good points and I admire your passion for your beliefs, I believe that we as the public are entitled to be passionate about whichever causes and areas we choose to be passionate about without being critically judged by anyone.

True, but whether this is realistically achievable is another thing. The problem with being passionate for a cause (and voicing that passion) is that you will, inevitably, be judged (as I have found out recently on here ). If you are prepared for this, then it makes your argumentative power that much stronger. If you are not, then you will be trampled by the people with whom you are arguing.

I want to add, as I think I may have not voiced this part strongly enough and got carried away with other things... I completely applaud you (toy dog) on what you're doing. No change happens without someone bringing the flaws into the spotlight and if everyone fought for animal welfare like you are, then the world would be a much better place.

Do take what I have said into consideration though, as these arguments are what you're likely to face while battling with both the council and the people running these puppy farms. They will compare the treatment of their dogs to the treatment of all other animals which are farmed for their offspring. And generally speaking, although the average person doesn't necessary like it, they are content with the fact because they don't like the alternative (which is either dont eat meat, or pay a higher price for the end product to ensure better welfare for the animals before and during slaughter). I don't think you're going to get anywhere the way you're going (through bombarding council members with letters and abuse) while you're arguing that they should treat dogs differently. The likelihood is, they wont. I look at it like this: If I was running one of those puppy farms and coming up against criticism from you, then I would dig deep enough to find out whether you bought free range meat, eggs etc etc. If you didn't, then your argument becomes weightless, because you are supporting the same sort of farming with a different animal and suggesting that I (the puppy farmer) be descriminated against because of the animal which I am farming. You have to PROVE why puppy farming is worse than regular farming, and relying on that because dogs are seen as companion animals will not cut it IMO.

I was actually politely referring to you judging people as being hypocrites.

You say above now that you agree with what I said by replying with "true". But yet how can you agree with what I said above when you said that personally you believe that people that were passionate in one area of animal welfare and not all areas were being hypocritical.

Make up your mind.

Edited for clarity.

Edited August 10, 2010 by dyzney

[toy dog]

Although you do address some good points and I admire your passion for your beliefs, I believe that we as the public are entitled to be passionate about whichever causes and areas we choose to be passionate about without being critically judged by anyone.

True, but whether this is realistically achievable is another thing. The problem with being passionate for a cause (and voicing that passion) is that you will, inevitably, be judged (as I have found out recently on here ). If you are prepared for this, then it makes your argumentative power that much stronger. If you are not, then you will be trampled by the people with whom you are arguing.

I want to add, as I think I may have not voiced this part strongly enough and got carried away with other things... I completely applaud you (toy dog) on what you're doing. No change happens without someone bringing the flaws into the spotlight and if everyone fought for animal welfare like you are, then the world would be a much better place.

Do take what I have said into consideration though, as these arguments are what you're likely to face while battling with both the council and the people running these puppy farms. They will compare the treatment of their dogs to the treatment of all other animals which are farmed for their offspring. And generally speaking, although the average person doesn't necessary like it, they are content with the fact because they don't like the alternative (which is either dont eat meat, or pay a higher price for the end product to ensure better welfare for the animals before and during slaughter). I don't think you're going to get anywhere the way you're going (through bombarding council members with letters and abuse) while you're arguing that they should treat dogs differently. The likelihood is, they wont. I look at it like this: If I was running one of those puppy farms and coming up against criticism from you, then I would dig deep enough to find out whether you bought free range meat, eggs etc etc. If you didn't, then your argument becomes weightless, because you are supporting the same sort of farming with a different animal and suggesting that I (the puppy farmer) be descriminated against because of the animal which I am farming. You have to PROVE why puppy farming is worse than regular farming, and relying on that because dogs are seen as companion animals will not cut it IMO.

i see what you are saying hence why my angle is genetics rather than focussing on how the dogs are treated, which is pretty bad in these hell holes. i have been told what these farmers are saying to council who don't know any better how genes work in animals. they are saying that their dogs are healthy even though they are crosses with random genes in them, they are saying that none of their dogs end up in shelters, how can they know that when they ship them off to petshops and they aren't meeting the new owners the shopkeepers are. they are saying their dogs are friendly, when i know through trial and error that timidness is very hard to breed out, it is a strong gene to eradicate. so they keep on putting up these arguments in reference to why their dogs are better and deserved to be farmed.

so i mention the angle of random genes, poor socialisation and poor genes which inturn affects their demeaner, health and grooming needs which equals dumpage in shelters which is what RSPCA is going on about in the first place.

how they are treated and the quality of life in these farms is but one aspect of a whole host of poor aspects. farmers have even said that if they were closed down ppl would go underground to get a puppy. so i explained where you would go to get a pet (reg breeder/shelter), closing down a farm would have no affect.

after i spent my time explaining to one councillor he thanked me and told me that he never thought of these issues and he perhaps need to re-think what the farmers are telling him.

i was polite he was polite and it was a good conversation. as is with the latest lady. she didn't have to answer me but she did and felt compelled to for some reason.

i have taken into consideration what you have said because it mirrors what i've been told by the people in the shire yes. some points were exactly what they said.

about 18 mths ago, i put this subject up on DOL, and many emailed the council then i heard through the grapevine that council were complaining of too many letters. lol they did the same to the shire in Geelong where there was a farm run by a MP eventually they had to bow to the people and they closed that farm but it took 10 years. this farm has been operating for 20 eventhough they have said 50 which is a load of crock. they'll say anything and they do to the press.

open day at the farm back fired big time and im so happy the public are starting to not be hoodwinked by these money grabbing farmers out to exploit these poor little defenseless dogs stuck in a prisonfor their whole lives.

[toy dog]

I want to add, as I think I may have not voiced this part strongly enough and got carried away with other things... I completely applaud you (toy dog) on what you're doing. No change happens without someone bringing the flaws into the spotlight and if everyone fought for animal welfare like you are, then the world would be a much better place.

no worries mate

[poodlemum]

Why is it worse to treat a dog poorly than any other animal? Because we have been conditioned to think that dogs are seperate from other animals

im sorry i had to answer this one, dogs are separate from chooks, pigs, cows and other farmed animals for food for humans! do you have pigs, cows and chooks in your bed on the sofa or in the car???????? some people do have pigs as pets but again, 1 in 3 house holds own a dog so there is no comparison what-so-ever.

still don't know what you are getting at.

Just another stirrer, I think. My point was that this is a DOG forum, not a chook or pig forum, we are interested in CANINE welfare. Because one or another type of animal is raised in poor conditions does not make it right for all animals.

[toy dog]

EDITED TO ADD:

most of what she told me there is a heap of Bull**** so i told her so also telling her most of her statements were very ignorant

I'd say that someone emailing a councilor that is never going to get their way (because its abusive).

i was polite and i didn't swear, i was summarizing because last night i was angry that she was putting forth the same points over and over again to me, I also thought that she is an ignoramus but i didn't tell her that either preferring to say her statements i am very sorry councillor are pointing towards ignorance. this is less confrontational than saying, look you twit you are ignorant. ;) the exact words i used is "this is not true" which is less agressive. sure you aren't on the side of farmers???, you sure are pointing every little thing out and trying to catch me out here. just summerising and trying to write things different in different threads as you are not allowed to double up on posts here, just following rules, i am getting quite upset with these councillors that keep on quoting crap and i'd love to say that to them but you don't get anywhere being nasty and being agressive. what you have highlighted, thanks for that btw, is very true.

Also, just because people dont live on farms does not mean that they can use ignorance as an excuse for not knowing how their food gets on their plate. There is more publicity about it then there is of puppy farms, and yet here we are. Research it.

And the fact that they only do it for money makes no difference legally or ethically. Most businesses are run purely for profit. I dont think a cattle farmer farms cattle because they love it... they do it for $$$.

it is necessary to have farms otherwise how do we as humans eat, have milk we are made to eat meat. however i digress this is not the issue.

thats for another forum i think legally they are in the right yes, as its not illegal to breed dogs for money and it never will be illegal. ethically, hmmm now you are opening a new can of worms here.

The reason that the puppy farmers are on the sides of the people who you want on your side is because they brown-nose them. They kiss their ass, because they need them, just like you need them.

dont' think i need them no. I can pretty much do without them.

They know this, and do whatever they can to keep the people that they need on their side, on their side. Maybe you should take a leaf out of their book on that topic.

ok then,

Also, just because canines haven't been traditionally 'farmed' in an agricultural setting does not mean that they cannot be considered livestock. They are farmed as a commodity, which was the keyword - not labor, sustenance or fibre. Also, canine does not refer to a wild dog. Canine is used to refer to a domesticated dog (it may be used to refer to ANY dog, domesticated or otherwise, but I was under the impression that canine is used to describe a domesticated dog. If someone could clarify, that would be great ;) ).

eh the word canine is not in that paragraph you sent through. its pretty straight forward what i explained i think you are turning this into a big debate when it doesn't need to be so.. you are turning what i said upside down inside out. what for??????

i think im done now gotta go and feed my little doggies joel.

[Joel]

I'm positive that I'm not on the side of the farmers. I'm not on the side of most farmers in general.

With that said, the reason that I chose to debate the topic with you is that I think that if you consider what I'm telling you, it will give you a better angle of attack for dealing with council. By showing you every possible angle that they can throw at you (and prepare you for it (because you will have already debated it with me )) then you are better equipped to argue harder and more to the point.

I don't think you're going to get far arguing about genetics. 'People' like cross breeds. A lot of people want the characteristics of more than one breed. You'll never get people just buying pure breeds. There will ALWAYS be a market for cross-bred dogs (and I think to an extent that there is a place for them. After all, if no dogs had ever been cross bred, most of the breeds that we see today wouldn't be in existence.

By the way, when I said "you need them" i meant council support, not puppy farmers, lol.

Poodlemum:

Because one or another type of animal is raised in poor conditions does not make it right for all animals.

My point is that this is not a valid argument in the eyes of both the council and the law (especially when the council already has its back up on the topic). Either its not right for all, or none. Puppy farmers will shout discrimination at the top of their lungs and will sue government for it.... and probably win.. because it would be (obviously this is just my opinion and I'm not a lawyer).

dyzney:

You say above now that you agree with what I said by replying with "true". But yet how can you agree with what I said above when you said that personally you believe that people that were passionate in one area of animal welfare and not all areas were being hypocritical.

Although I don't necessarily believe that people should be critically judged for their opinions, I think that it is in our nature to do so and that it should almost be expected when conveying an opinion. It seems that you also fall into this catagory of people to judge even though you were the first to argue this point - You judge me (whether openly, subtly or politely) for my opinions of others

Anyway, it seems like the point I was trying to put forward hasn't been taken in the way it was meant. I'm glad that everyone is so passionate, but obviously what I'm saying is just falling on (mostly) deaf ears. So, all I can do is say good luck and fight hard Keep us posted on how it all goes

Edited August 10, 2010 by Joel

[Andrea&John]

A great article from Underdog Training "why dogs are not dairy cows"

http://alburydogrescue.org.au/dogs-are-not-cows.pdf

Of course a lot of animals live in appalling conditions. And there are many people trying to help them. Here we are trying to help the dogs.

Not supporting bad treatment of any kind of animal (or people for that matter)

But if someone is fighting one case it will get us no where when we start "BUT the kids in Africa are dying too.."

[mortonplace]

I don't think you're going to get far arguing about genetics. 'People' like cross breeds. A lot of people want the characteristics of more than one breed. You'll never get people just buying pure breeds. There will ALWAYS be a market for cross-bred dogs (and I think to an extent that there is a place for them. After all, if no dogs had ever been cross bred, most of the breeds that we see today wouldn't be in existence

This above quote by Joel is the point here i feel...

l live in Gippsland and my shire is Wellington shire .

l have pure breds only a pemit for 10 dogs but want to increase it so i can keep older dogs also without rehomeing them because of the number issue.

Now if people bombard the shire about puppy farms it makes it very very difficult for people like me to get another permit.

l think TOYDOGS you need to specify the cross breeding issues and the over breeding of the x breed dogs for petshop issues for sure.

The shire dosent know the differnce between puppy farms and breeders whom have pure bred dogs that are reg with dogsvic and council and have both of them to answer to.They just see the aplication wants to keep extra dogs.

They think were all the same..l was told this last year tof his after the council got bombarded with letters and raids and to be honest it cheezed me off

lt caused me not to be able to apply lm about to try again and here i see its going to happen again bombarded with letters from people that dont like puppy farms.l have no issues with the bomardment but please do repeat what you call a puppyfam so they know the diffrence.MAYBE TARGET CERTAIN FARMS..Little steps do work you know

The way the laws are changeing anyway x breeding will be breed out it may take a few years but it will happen[desexing unreg dog laws before reg]

Also thought id add this shire has closed down 8 farms the last few years..So there is progress happening gippsland had heaps more farms this time 3/4 years ago belive me

[toy dog]

I don't think you're going to get far arguing about genetics. 'People' like cross breeds. A lot of people want the characteristics of more than one breed. You'll never get people just buying pure breeds. There will ALWAYS be a market for cross-bred dogs (and I think to an extent that there is a place for them. After all, if no dogs had ever been cross bred, most of the breeds that we see today wouldn't be in existence

This above quote by Joel is the point here i feel...

l live in Gippsland and my shire is Wellington shire .

l have pure breds only a pemit for 10 dogs but want to increase it so i can keep older dogs also without rehomeing them because of the number issue.

Now if people bombard the shire about puppy farms it makes it very very difficult for people like me to get another permit.

l think TOYDOGS you need to specify the cross breeding issues and the over breeding of the x breed dogs for petshop issues for sure.

The shire dosent know the differnce between puppy farms and breeders whom have pure bred dogs that are reg with dogsvic and council and have both of them to answer to.They just see the aplication wants to keep extra dogs.

They think were all the same..l was told this last year tof his after the council got bombarded with letters and raids and to be honest it cheezed me off

lt caused me not to be able to apply lm about to try again and here i see its going to happen again bombarded with letters from people that dont like puppy farms.l have no issues with the bomardment but please do repeat what you call a puppyfam so they know the diffrence.MAYBE TARGET CERTAIN FARMS..Little steps do work you know

The way the laws are changeing anyway x breeding will be breed out it may take a few years but it will happen[desexing unreg dog laws before reg]

Also thought id add this shire has closed down 8 farms the last few years..So there is progress happening gippsland had heaps more farms this time 3/4 years ago belive me

Mortonplace, we are in wellington shire under a permit. we are locals. we have targetted one particular main farm yes. there is another one i know off that is operated by a person that is known to me - family connections but not related - thank god. all the others i do not know personally. i asked the question of how many farms are under wellington shire's duristiction and i never got an answer from these councillors all i got in several emails was "we are montoring these farms" when it was proven otherwise several times. i got an answer from the animal groups who have attended forums where the ranger was guest speaker. i mention genetics to these councillors that have the power to reject or no renew permits of farms, because it is the link of why so many "dogs" are put in shelters, as we know these SWF are not tested like a pedigree has potential to be (depending on the breeder), genetics are not tracked in bloodlines because they are mongrels and temperament is not concentrated on which is an important aspect if the dog isn't a good family member then they are dumped. this is my angle with genetics. people with no experience with breeding dogs, what is dominant genes what is recessive etc etc. have no idea how important this is of why so many dogs are dumped in our shelters.. so i take my time to explain these aspects. i also concentrate on socialisation aspects in farms which is nil, training which is nil and also grooming tips which is nil when they are dogs that have several different textures of coat in them which i am told by groomers is very hard to groom so imagine an inexperienced dog owner coping with that thick wooly coat which unfortunately also equals high dumpage rate.

the raids started way before the letters started going, as they had an ongoing dialogue with one main puppy farm (largest in australia) where there was a courtcase because the property was entered and there was a bit of a stand off, nothing to do with letters from the public.

as the public are becoming aware of these farms and knowing not to buy petshop pups that come from these farms that are all in gippsland mainly the only way we can close them down is public pressure, how else do you propose we can close them down Mortonplace? this is the only thing i can think of to help educate the public because as the latest councillor said i am in contact with, and she is again correct, it is in the hands of the consumer and what way can we get to consumers and the public and locals to help is through sites like DOL where there are 12,000 users who are dog lovers just like you and me.

these farms breed SWFs that are dumped in our pounds and shelters its been proven that there are more of these dogs than any other in shelters that are overcrowded. so this is another aspect i do push home too.

i had a great long long dialogue with the mayor about a year ago about the difference between cross breeds and registered breeds. I sort of knew of him not personally but it was the footing i needed to get him to to listen to me why we see SWF's in shelters alot more than we see pedigrees. he listened he took it onboard and he said he was going to re-think what these farmers had told him. the problem we face is these farms are feeding these councillors with propaganda, for instance, our dogs are not dumped, our dogs are healthy they have no genetic flaws, there is a market for these SWF so why not breed up thousands of pups. These are the issues i try and address with each councillor. i have also welcomed them to contact me anytime where i will clarify any issue in relation to breeding of good quality dogs.

one councillor said that they had refused a puppy farm that was going to start up, so yes small steps are getting us there. the councillor also said that not many residents are complaining of these farms so this is why i am writing in here. there are many issues with these farms and its only one aspect that they are not following protocol and legislation set out in the code of practice for a registered animal business.

so they now know the difference as no one has taken the time to explain to these people the difference. i am getting each councillor one by one to try to educate them on the differences and they at least know because i feed them with links as well.

morten place we have had a permit with wellington shire for 25 years and they certainly do know the difference between a dogsvictoria membership and a cross breed farmer/backyard breeder as the councillor just recently agreed with me that backyarders are the main cause of overpopulation in shelters which she is correct but she failed to recognise the connection with also these farmers who are pumping out pups left right and centre.

mortenplace you shouldn't feel guilty and place yourself in the same basket as these farmers as we have nothing to do with them and because of the shire approving farms left, right and centre i dont' think they are going to be very strict with permits. they certainly weren't strict with us, no one has ever been near us as when it was approved and since then for 25 years. They trust what we tell them as true and it is ofcourse, we explain in great detail what we are about and they listen. farmers know to come to wellington shire as no one checks the permits with both farms and also people like you and me.

they understand a showdog permit and need to replace any showdogs if they get old or if we have to sell them if we need to breed them. this is the way we've always done it.

Edited August 11, 2010 by toy dog

[toy dog]

I don't think you're going to get far arguing about genetics. 'People' like cross breeds. A lot of people want the characteristics of more than one breed. You'll never get people just buying pure breeds. There will ALWAYS be a market for cross-bred dogs (and I think to an extent that there is a place for them. After all, if no dogs had ever been cross bred, most of the breeds that we see today wouldn't be in existence

well yes you are telling me that there will always be people that don't bother to research before they buy, you know what you call this? ignorance. plain and simple. about 20 years ago a big market started in mainly DDs you know why, because there was an idiot gardener on a show that called himself an expert that was actually promoting these farms, so people got on the money bandwagon and the DD was born then these large farms became the norm today.

purebreeds were selectively bred to produce dogs for function and some might have been crossed several hundred years ago, my own breed the smooth coat chihuahua is thousands of years old and were bred by the toltecs, they are one of the breeds that has remained true to their form (which is small in size with the same features) in all of this time, so dogs were not bred for profit alone you know one hundred years ago or more, if they did we would have been in grave strife i reckon being only guided by the almighty dollar not for function or service of the police or there is a million and one reasons why dogs were bred a certain way to adopt features, function or temperament, you cannot compare this selective breeding to breeding of SWF today which are just bred for pure profit alone no health testing done, no uniform in looks, no nothing there is no comparison what-so-ever to a pedigree dog. its like comparing a ferrari to a hyundai.

Edited August 11, 2010 by toy dog

[toy dog]

They think were all the same..l was told this last year tof his after the council got bombarded with letters and raids and to be honest it cheezed me off

i never took notice of this bit you wrote. i think it would have been the ranger Gary at the time to be the one who told you? the same person who doubledup as a traffic officer in wellington :rolleyes: so no he would not have known the difference. so why didn't you plead your case to them to let them know of the difference when you had contact with them

now a kevin burge is the ranger and service officer/traffic officer, the same person who went to the RSPCA forum on puppy farms and stated the farms in gippsland are bad and we monitor them, the same speal he gave me a few days ago on email. it was then brought to the attention that wellington have not been doing audit reports on these farms for 5 years as all the pages were BLANK.

i have not had a chance to have a dialogue with this new service/traffic officer replacing gary so i don't know what his views are.

but i do know one thing, whoever told you that in wellington shire are making themselves out to be very ignorant and even a little bit uneducated if they think just because the farms operate in this area and people dont want them complain, that that is directly related to a person that is registered with dogsvictoria.

they have dogsvictoria on the registrations so they are aware of our organisation.

[toy dog]

A great article from Underdog Training "why dogs are not dairy cows"

http://alburydogrescue.org.au/dogs-are-not-cows.pdf

Of course a lot of animals live in appalling conditions. And there are many people trying to help them. Here we are trying to help the dogs.

Not supporting bad treatment of any kind of animal (or people for that matter)

But if someone is fighting one case it will get us no where when we start "BUT the kids in Africa are dying too.."

thanks for that great article, i have bookmarked this to keep for future use.