Having Trouble Training

[Ravyk]

I need some help. I am getting increasingly frustrated trying to train Peggie to do anything at the moment.

My training up until last few months has been notoriously slack. I hurt my back recently, couldn't work, so I started clicker training both dogs. First thing I started with was just recapping 'sit' and 'drop' using the clicker, mainly to boost my confidence. Both did really well at picking 'sit' and 'drop' up. Then I moved onto something that they both previously had been taught, 'shake'. Spot got it within a 5 minute session. Peggie on the other hand is a different story.

She's totally forgotten 'shake'. So I started off by lifting her paw with my hand and marking that with the clicker and rewarding. But no matter how many times I have done it with her [i do 5-10 min sessions at a time and stop before I get too frustrated] she never got the hang of lifting her paw for me. She would always offer another action, either sit or drop which I taught beforehand.

So I decided to give paw targeting a go but with no avail. She nose targets perfectly, but I cannot for the life of me get her to touch an object with her paw. I've tried using toys, balls, big felt circles. All she offers is nosing the object. She just will not offer anything different. It's just *nose**nose harder**gives up and sits and stares at me*

I just don't understand what I am doing wrong.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

maybe you arent doing anything wrong.

i saw an article about assistance dogs and it said that dogs were either paw dogs or nose dogs. in other words some dogs use paws to target and some dogs use noses.

maybe peggie is a nose dog.

maybe try another command using her nose and see if she gets it quicker

[Ravyk]

maybe you arent doing anything wrong.

i saw an article about assistance dogs and it said that dogs were either paw dogs or nose dogs. in other words some dogs use paws to target and some dogs use noses.

maybe peggie is a nose dog.

maybe try another command using her nose and see if she gets it quicker

Like what? I am seriously stumped about what I can do with her.

[RallyValley]

maybe you arent doing anything wrong.

i saw an article about assistance dogs and it said that dogs were either paw dogs or nose dogs. in other words some dogs use paws to target and some dogs use noses.

maybe peggie is a nose dog.

maybe try another command using her nose and see if she gets it quicker

Like what? I am seriously stumped about what I can do with her.

You could always put the target (i.e a piece of paper) on your hand and get her to target that. Then wean the paper away from you hand until she is targeting the paper on the floor or another surface, then make the paper smaller and smaller until she isn't really targeting the paper anyomore, this might get her using her nose to target too.

[Kavik]

Maybe you are aiming too high at the start. Shaping can be frustrating

Have you tried:

1) Clicking for any movement of her feet. When she lifts them at all. When she takes a step.

or

2) using the felt circle, shape her touching it with her paw. So click for going near the felt, increase criteria til stepping on it. Ignore her attempts to nose touch it (she will try) only reward for foot movement. Reward for stepping closer to it if she won't step on it.

Shaping is using baby steps, especially at the beginning.

[wuffles]

I agree with Kavik in that maybe your criteria is too high and you can start with offering "parts" of a behaviour instead Satch learned to heel, drop, stay by starting with reallllly low criteria. All dogs are different in how long it takes them to learn things and whether they WANT to learn things.

I have a dog that sounds like Peggie training-wise ;) Instead of offering a behaviour he will lie down and go to sleep. The truth is, he is just not that interested in training. He is very laidback and well-behaved, he will sit and wait for things but that is about the extend of his obedience I spend time with him doing different things - just hanging out, playing with other dogs, napping Although I took him through a few levels of obedience at our local dog club, I had to rethink what I wanted for him as he wasn't enjoying it. Ultimately I wanted him to do the things he lives for, so now he sleeps a lot and gets a lot of pats, then I go and train the puppy who lives for training and interaction.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i agree with the tiny steps. what i have seen is to get a dog to touch a washing maching door, with its nose (or paw) this was the start of the end behaviour of getting the washing out of the machine. so it started very simply and then build up new behaviours on the previous learnt behaviour, until you have the behaviour you want

maybe watch peggie and start rewarding something she already does then attach a command to it then once she gets the idea try to put in new behaviours.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Ravyk]

maybe you arent doing anything wrong.

i saw an article about assistance dogs and it said that dogs were either paw dogs or nose dogs. in other words some dogs use paws to target and some dogs use noses.

maybe peggie is a nose dog.

maybe try another command using her nose and see if she gets it quicker

Like what? I am seriously stumped about what I can do with her.

You could always put the target (i.e a piece of paper) on your hand and get her to target that. Then wean the paper away from you hand until she is targeting the paper on the floor or another surface, then make the paper smaller and smaller until she isn't really targeting the paper anyomore, this might get her using her nose to target too.

She nose targets fine. That isn't the problem. I'm trying to get her to use her feet.

[Ravyk]

Now I think about it I wonder if its got to do with the way she sits. She doesn't tend to sit straight ever but leans to the side with one back foot slightly under her body. She appears to use her front paws to balance. Any ideas on how I correct this?

[RallyValley]

maybe you arent doing anything wrong.

i saw an article about assistance dogs and it said that dogs were either paw dogs or nose dogs. in other words some dogs use paws to target and some dogs use noses.

maybe peggie is a nose dog.

maybe try another command using her nose and see if she gets it quicker

Like what? I am seriously stumped about what I can do with her.

You could always put the target (i.e a piece of paper) on your hand and get her to target that. Then wean the paper away from you hand until she is targeting the paper on the floor or another surface, then make the paper smaller and smaller until she isn't really targeting the paper anyomore, this might get her using her nose to target too.

She nose targets fine. That isn't the problem. I'm trying to get her to use her feet.

I must have read that the wrong way sorry!

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Now I think about it I wonder if its got to do with the way she sits. She doesn't tend to sit straight ever but leans to the side with one back foot slightly under her body. She appears to use her front paws to balance. Any ideas on how I correct this?

this might be a bit left field but do you think she has a problem with her back?

can she lift her paw when standing? maybe start with this then try the sittng position

[Tassie]

Can you maybe try sitting on the floor with her in front of you, and just putting your hand flat on the floor in front of her - fairly close so she can reach it with her paw easily. For the purpose of this exercise I would just ignore the nose touches you'll probably get, and wait her out to see if you can get a paw investigation. Be ready to mark and reward any movement of the paw at first. There should be a way to make a paw lift more likely by placing your hand so that she is a little unbalanced, and will lift a paw slightly to balance.

Sorry - probably doesn't make much sense - it's something you'd just have to experiment with - or hopefully someone will come along who can explain it better. But definitely go for splitting - be ready to click/treat the slightest movement at first - do that a few times, then wait her out for a bit more. You'll see the light-bulb moment.

[corvus]

Will she paw your fist if there's a piece of food in it? Most dogs do.

Or else you could get a larger target, like a piece of carpet or a mat, and walk her across it. Click when the paw you want her to target with hits the carpet or mat. You have to fade yourself out really fast. Try after, like, three clicks. I have been using a rubber mat with nubs on it to teach targeting with rear feet.

[bedazzledx2]

Ravyk you've had some really good advice here. Something that occurs to me is that she may not be experienced in offering behaviours. I would play some shaping games to help her out. Playing 100 things to do with a box can help with free shaping and if you see her using her paw just click and throw the food to one side so she has to go get it and then figure out what she got clicked for. http://www.clickertraining.com/node/167

I need some help. I am getting increasingly frustrated trying to train Peggie to do anything at the moment.

My training up until last few months has been notoriously slack. I hurt my back recently, couldn't work, so I started clicker training both dogs. First thing I started with was just recapping 'sit' and 'drop' using the clicker, mainly to boost my confidence. Both did really well at picking 'sit' and 'drop' up. Then I moved onto something that they both previously had been taught, 'shake'. Spot got it within a 5 minute session. Peggie on the other hand is a different story.

She's totally forgotten 'shake'. So I started off by lifting her paw with my hand and marking that with the clicker and rewarding. But no matter how many times I have done it with her [i do 5-10 min sessions at a time and stop before I get too frustrated] she never got the hang of lifting her paw for me. She would always offer another action, either sit or drop which I taught beforehand.

So I decided to give paw targeting a go but with no avail. She nose targets perfectly, but I cannot for the life of me get her to touch an object with her paw. I've tried using toys, balls, big felt circles. All she offers is nosing the object. She just will not offer anything different. It's just *nose**nose harder**gives up and sits and stares at me*

I just don't understand what I am doing wrong.

[Ravyk]

Now I think about it I wonder if its got to do with the way she sits. She doesn't tend to sit straight ever but leans to the side with one back foot slightly under her body. She appears to use her front paws to balance. Any ideas on how I correct this?

this might be a bit left field but do you think she has a problem with her back?

can she lift her paw when standing? maybe start with this then try the sittng position

I did wonder this and I will be asking my vet when she goes in for her annual check up next week or so [need to wait for OH to be paid]. She will sit straight when placed in that position manually.

Can you maybe try sitting on the floor with her in front of you, and just putting your hand flat on the floor in front of her - fairly close so she can reach it with her paw easily. For the purpose of this exercise I would just ignore the nose touches you'll probably get, and wait her out to see if you can get a paw investigation. Be ready to mark and reward any movement of the paw at first. There should be a way to make a paw lift more likely by placing your hand so that she is a little unbalanced, and will lift a paw slightly to balance.

Sorry - probably doesn't make much sense - it's something you'd just have to experiment with - or hopefully someone will come along who can explain it better. But definitely go for splitting - be ready to click/treat the slightest movement at first - do that a few times, then wait her out for a bit more. You'll see the light-bulb moment.

It makes a lot of sense, its just she never gets to the stage of doing anything else, if I ignore the nosing she just eventually shuts down and sits and stares at me.

Will she paw your fist if there's a piece of food in it? Most dogs do.

Or else you could get a larger target, like a piece of carpet or a mat, and walk her across it. Click when the paw you want her to target with hits the carpet or mat. You have to fade yourself out really fast. Try after, like, three clicks. I have been using a rubber mat with nubs on it to teach targeting with rear feet.

No she only noses my hand and then gives up. Will give the carpet a try, thanks!

Ravyk you've had some really good advice here. Something that occurs to me is that she may not be experienced in offering behaviours. I would play some shaping games to help her out. Playing 100 things to do with a box can help with free shaping and if you see her using her paw just click and throw the food to one side so she has to go get it and then figure out what she got clicked for. http://www.clickertraining.com/node/167

I think you are spot on. She has had two previous owners before me. OH's mother and a couple who surrendered her to OH's mother. She was very well trained when OH's mother got her, the couple had her for a year and were travelling around Australia in a car, the lady got pregnant and they had to move into a place where they couldn't have her. We got her from OH's mother just before she turned 3 [she is 5 this year]. I have no idea how she was trained originally, but other than the things she already knew from before, I haven't been able to teach her anything new [not that I have really tried until recently]. She just doesn't appear interested in learning anything new.

[Staranais]

My previous dog was like that when I first got him. It took me weeks to teach him to lie down on cue, and I'm not that bad a trainer. It was like he just didn't see the point. After a few months, he worked out what was going on, & eventually became a pretty keen learner.

The first few behaviours are always the hardest to get. The dog isn't just learning the behaviour. He's learning the concept of learning - learning that you require him to do something, and learning that the sounds coming out of your mouth have some relation to what he is supposed to do. Once they learn how to learn, then adding other behaviours is easy.

So I suggest is trying to teach a completely different behaviour. I suspect target with the paw might be confusingly similar to target with the nose, and she's getting frustrated since she's trying to do what you want, & she's not getting rewarded. If you teach something completely different, then the dog might find it easier to understand that you want a different thing. How about teaching spin in a circle, or come to heel, or recall? These are all very different to targeting a body part, and usually all are quite fun for dogs. Once she has worked out how to learn, then you could go back to teaching body parts.

[Ravyk]

Had a small breakthrough before! Was playing hide the cheese cube with the dogs and I stacked some plastic containers upside down into a pyramid on a milk crate it so she couldn't reach the cheese which I placed on top. After trying to reach it with her nose and failing she actually got her paws up onto the crate to get to the treat.

I also found something else, she gets confused with the clicker. As soon as I tried adding the click to mark the wanted behaviour she shut down and just sat and stared at me and wouldn't offer me any behaviour, just looked and waited for the click.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Had a small breakthrough before! Was playing hide the cheese cube with the dogs and I stacked some plastic containers upside down into a pyramid on a milk crate it so she couldn't reach the cheese which I placed on top. After trying to reach it with her nose and failing she actually got her paws up onto the crate to get to the treat.

I also found something else, she gets confused with the clicker. As soon as I tried adding the click to mark the wanted behaviour she shut down and just sat and stared at me and wouldn't offer me any behaviour, just looked and waited for the click.

excellent breakthrough. can you try saying "yes" instead of using the clicker? she may have some negative association with the noise?

[corvus]

I'd sit there and go "click treat" to feed her about 30 treats. Seems like maybe she needs more conditioning to the sound.

[Tassie]

Had a small breakthrough before! Was playing hide the cheese cube with the dogs and I stacked some plastic containers upside down into a pyramid on a milk crate it so she couldn't reach the cheese which I placed on top. After trying to reach it with her nose and failing she actually got her paws up onto the crate to get to the treat.

I also found something else, she gets confused with the clicker. As soon as I tried adding the click to mark the wanted behaviour she shut down and just sat and stared at me and wouldn't offer me any behaviour, just looked and waited for the click.

Hey that's great! Hope you had a big party with her .

I do use a clicker (sometimes), but because I'm an unco klutz, I tend to use my marker word "Yes!" usually - sometimes even if I'm meaning to click ( ). Even the word does need to be charged, like the clicker, though.

It does sound like something like some totally free shaping - like 101 things to do with a box, where you really don't care what you get, and you can just decide to click anything for a while, then decide to wait for something different - would help both of you - takes all the pressure off, and she can just get lots of rewards for 'playing around' - so you're mixing up some fairly rapid mark/treat with periods of waiting for her to do something else. Chair and a coffee are good for this ;)

And throwing the treat away in different directions, as bedazzled says, is great, as it gets the dog moving away and then back to the object, and takes the focus off you. Then if it's gone a bit slow, you can mark/reward moving back toward the object a couple times to 'unstick' her.