Lip Curling

[Snout Girl]

Bit of background

Our border collie Sally is 15 months old. She attends obedience every Saturday and is doing well, tho is still a bit puppy scattered. She has been socialised with other people/dogs from a young age. She isn’t interested in other dogs, more of a people dog; she ignores dogs for the most part.

We have another dog of a similar age that she gets along fine with.

She has a very soft personality, very submissive, bit of a sook really. Whenever another dog approaches her she immediately rolls on to her back. So she is very soft natured, which is why her recent behaviour is strange.

We have had a few instances of lip curling and low rumbled growling. I could be making a mountain of a molehill but I figure its better to ask for advice then just leave a potential problem to get worse.

Incident 1:

We were at our off leash dog park. Another dog came up to her whilst she had her ball and she curled her lip and softly growled. When the other dog didn’t back off she ‘air snapped’ but when the other dog still didn’t back off she crapped herself and rolled on to her back. We reprimanded the initial behaviour but weren’t sure if we were doing the right thing? Does this mean she is developing resource guarding behaviour or is this normal? How should we correct it?

Incident 2:

OH loaded Sally into the car after dog school. She sat on the wrong side of the car so he pushed her to the other side of the car. She lifted her lip and growled a little. OH was shocked and reprimanded her verbally.

Incident 3:

I was having a cuddle with her on our bed. I pulled her closer to me and she curled her lip and growled. Again I reprimanded her.

We don’t know if this is normal behaviour or not so aren’t sure if our actions are the correct ones to take. She is such a sweet, soft girl we don’t know if maybe she is just pushing the boundaries a bit and testing our leadership.

Any advice appreciated. Please no flaming as to how we have dealt with it until now we are doing our best. It isn’t a huge issue but I wanted some opinions before it possibly escalated.

Edited August 15, 2010 by bertandsally

[Skitch]

.. Personally I dont think it's normal behavior? I'd be horrified if either of my dogs growled at me over something as simple as being moved! Has she been to a vet lately? This doesn't really explain the first incident but maybe she has some sort of sprain and being moved as your OH did to put her in the car and you when you were cuddling her hurt her a bit? Perhaps seek the advice of a behaviorist or trainer.. this is the sort of behavior that seems to escalate if not dealt with properly.

[poodlefan]

B&S:

We were at our off leash dog park. Another dog came up to her whilst she had her ball and she curled her lip and softly growled. When the other dog didn’t back off she ‘air snapped’ but when the other dog still didn’t back off she crapped herself and rolled on to her back. We reprimanded the initial behaviour but weren’t sure if we were doing the right thing?

In my opinion you weren't. You had a dog with a valued resource in a dog park (don't use balls when there are other dogs around) and you reprimanded her for defending it. Best to prevent the situation entirely.

Incident 2:

OH loaded Sally into the car after dog school. She sat on the wrong side of the car so he pushed her to the other side of the car. She lifted her lip and growled a little. OH was shocked and reprimanded her verbally.

He shoved, she warned him not to. Would have been smarter to encourage her to move but I don't believe in reprimanding warning behaviours - you may end up with no warnings before a bite. I'd not be happy with the behaviour and would probably seek some professional advice on it.

Incident 3:

I was having a cuddle with her on our bed. I pulled her closer to me and she curled her lip and growled. Again I reprimanded her.

Sounds to me like you've got a dog that won't tolerate being manhandled. I's suggest a vet trip and a chiropractic visit to rule out any physical reason and then some professional advice. I'd not be happy about what's happening and I would be heeding the warnings your dog is giving you and NOT reprimanding her for them.

Edited August 4, 2010 by poodlefan

[Ravyk]

I am no expert so people feel free to correct me on this

In incident 1, your dog was trying to tell the other dog she didn't want to be approached and was guarding her 'resource' the ball. Does she do it when she doesn't have a ball? One of mine does a similar thing when being approached by active dogs, but doesn't generally get to a stage of snapping, as I generally remove her from the area once I hear the growling starting.

She also does the growling and lip lifting when our other dog gets too close to her bone.

Incidents 2 & 3...not too sure about. But could she possibly be in pain? I push and shove [gently] my dogs around in the car and they've never growled at me. Only time my bitch growled directly at me was when I was checking her spey wound and rubbing cream on a nasty section of clipper irritation. It was obviously because she was in pain.

[persephone]

"sweet and soft'

Hmmm..

could be your girl has some fear aggression issues .

Impossible to accurately tell you what's happening on a forum such as this- but I will suggest you contact an experienced trainer/behaviourist , before the problem gets worse

that said- has she had a vet check recently?

Is she speyed?

[Snout Girl]

She went to a vet recently for her annual check up and she is in top health.

we took her growling as she was being a brat and wanted her own way which was not to be moved.

OH is going to mention in at dog training on Saturday.

I dont believe we need to call out a personal behaviouralist just yet

[Snout Girl]

"sweet and soft'

Hmmm..

could be your girl has some fear aggression issues .

Impossible to accurately tell you what's happening on a forum such as this- but I will suggest you contact an experienced trainer/behaviourist , before the problem gets worse

that said- has she had a vet check recently?

Is she speyed?

yes she is speyed

[Snout Girl]

I am no expert so people feel free to correct me on this

In incident 1, your dog was trying to tell the other dog she didn't want to be approached and was guarding her 'resource' the ball. Does she do it when she doesn't have a ball? One of mine does a similar thing when being approached by active dogs, but doesn't generally get to a stage of snapping, as I generally remove her from the area once I hear the growling starting.

She also does the growling and lip lifting when our other dog gets too close to her bone.

Incidents 2 & 3...not too sure about. But could she possibly be in pain? I push and shove [gently] my dogs around in the car and they've never growled at me. Only time my bitch growled directly at me was when I was checking her spey wound and rubbing cream on a nasty section of clipper irritation. It was obviously because she was in pain.

no, she doesnt react to other dogs at all if she doesnt have the ball. I figured it was resource guarding for this reason.

[poodlefan]

She went to a vet recently for her annual check up and she is in top health.

we took her growling as she was being a brat and wanted her own way which was not to be moved.

OH is going to mention in at dog training on Saturday.

I dont believe we need to call out a personal behaviouralist just yet

If OH is told to reprimand the behaviour, that is quite worrying advice.

It's your call on whether or not you need professional help but if you see an increase in the frequency or a lowering of the trigger for this kind of behaviour, I'd not be delaying getting advice.

[persephone]

I dont believe we need to call out a personal behaviouralist just yet

I do- it only takes one misread signal for things to go wrong

[Snout Girl]

She went to a vet recently for her annual check up and she is in top health.

we took her growling as she was being a brat and wanted her own way which was not to be moved.

OH is going to mention in at dog training on Saturday.

I dont believe we need to call out a personal behaviouralist just yet

If OH is told to reprimand the behaviour, that is quite worrying advice.

It's your call on whether or not you need professional help but if you see an increase in the frequency or a lowering of the trigger for this kind of behaviour, I'd not be delaying getting advice.

Thanks poodlefan, OH is going to speak to the owner of our dog training school (who we have had come out before a year or so ago about a different issue) on Saturday to seek her opinion, as she also knows Sally quite well.

[Animal House]

The park issue sounds like resource guarding. I don't like off least parks as too many of such incidences can occur. She was warning the other dog the ball was hers. Simple.

With her curling her lip at you and your Oh, she could be hurt (hence not wanting to be pushed or pulled) or it could be a behavioral issue.

I would get a vet to check (despite her recent bill of health, because injuries, sprains, strains can occur at any time) her over for any sore spots, and if none, definitely a behaviorist so the issue doesn't accelerate.

I would NOT reprimand for growling, otherwise like PF said, next time she won't warn, she will bite.

[kiesha09]

I'm not flaming what you have done about the behaviour in the past by any means because you were just doing what you thought best and from reading your previous posts about your dogs I know you have their best interests at heart. But I would like to reiterate the fact that its best that you don't reprimand her for her warning behaviours (growls, lip curling etc.). These are all behaviours that are telling you she is not happy about the situation and should it continue she will bite. If you reprimand her for showing these behaviours it will come to a point where she won't give a warning and just straight out bite - be it you, another dog or even a child.

It is hard to say what the underlying issue is and that is why everyone has said to see a behaviouralist. Because whilst the situation may not be serious now it has the potential to become serious.

From what you have described it sounds like she is resource guarding, both her ball and her space. Therefore I would start with managing the ball issue and not allow her access to it while other dogs are around. Then I would implement the Nothing In Life Is Free (NILF) program so remind her that YOU control all the resources and everything good comes from you. It will help to remind her that complying with YOUR wishes is what is going to earn her all good things in life.

In terms of moving her around etc. I would try not to physically move her but to encourage her to move. Perhaps teaching her to target could be useful for this.

Other than that, take everyones advice and see a behaviourist. Resource guarding can be very serious as I've said so best to get it under control whilst she is young than it become a full blown problem.

[corvus]

I can't say how many BCs we have met at dog parks that resource guard their balls. Almost every one would be my guess. It seems typical of the breed to me. I've seen plenty of then get in trouble from their humans for doing it, and does it make a shred of difference? No, because nothing has changed. They still need to protect their balls from any dog that comes near them. I understand that in some places an off leash park is about the only place you can throw a ball for a BC so they can run out the crazies. I do take toys to the park, although I don't throw them because my boys aren't big on retrieving. I think you have to decide how you're going to manage this, because I expect it will happen again and again. Be very aware that if you intervene and rescue her and her ball from another dog, you will have reinforced whatever she did the moment before you intervened. If it were me, I would intervene before she ever felt the need to curl her lip. I'd teach her a good recall and take the ball myself while there were other dogs around. I wouldn't come down on her for protecting her ball. IME it's not going to change anything, just make her more anxious.

As far as moving her around goes, again, she's just communicating. I've never had one of my dogs curl their lip at me, but I don't think that's particularly because they see who is calling the shots or controlling the resources. I'm just careful about not pushing them much. Erik especially, as he really does not like being restrained. I dealt with this early with desensitisation and counter-conditioning him to being handled. He gets lots of massage and we regularly play games where he gets a tasty treat for letting us touch his paws, his mouth, or grab him from above. It's not fair, I think, to expect a dog to automatically accept being handled against their will. You wouldn't expect a person to put up with it. Targeting is a good way to reframe moving a dog around so it no longer looks to the dog like something they don't want to do. Erik will move to where I indicate with my hand, but if I happen to pull on him or push him he digs his heels in and often automatically drops to the ground and refuses to move. I am fine with that. If I stop trying to force him and just tell him where I want him to go he is usually quite happy to go there.

[Agility Dogs]

I can't say how many BCs we have met at dog parks that resource guard their balls. Almost every one would be my guess. It seems typical of the breed to me.

True, unless you are my girl who gives her toys to any other dog who approaches - just in case.

That said, this is exactly why I don't take my BC's to dog parks. They are VERY serious about their toys or in fact any work they might be doing - anyone who interrupts is in trouble. I wouldn't put too much stock in the dog park incident, but would also not be letting your pup play with toys around other dogs - they are a resource and will more than likely be guarded.

I agree with others who have mentioned getting your dog checked again for any problems - they should not be curling their lip at you and it may be a sign of pain. But again agree that I would not be correcting the behaviour - better to know they are not happy and have a chance to redirect than not know, but have to bear the consequences.

[Tilly]

Incident 1 - I would not correct as a growl is part of a warning between dogs. I like my dogs to give a warning if they are not happy rather then just go in for the bite. Agree with the removing of the toy - as this can cause many problems with dogs in off-leash parks.

Incident 2 and 3 - personally I wouldn't tolerate. I would be checking with a vet initally to make sure she wasn't in pain or had a medical issue and then work on her training. I would remove her off the furniture/beds and start looking at pack leadership and NILIF.

[Dame Aussie]

Lili will growl at Mosley when he tries to take her ball and has done it with another dog before.

She is very possessive of her ball and we're aware of this so normally we only play fetch alone. If she was growling at me like that I would check out her health and then look at some training and improving my leadership.

I don't think there is any need to panic but it definitely doesn't sound normal or in line with her normal behaviour and needs to be addressed.

Good luck with it.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Aussie3

[Snout Girl]

Just a quick update in case anyone was wondering about Sally...

spoke to one of the lead trainers at our obedience club (who is also a border collie owner and someone we respect).

she also knows Sally fairly well having taken her in both obedience and agility.

she gave similar advice to that of some people on DOL- reaffirming pack leadership, making her work for any kind of reward including pats etc. also using NILIF.

we have implemented her advice and so far there hasnt been any other incidents.

i also took her to the vet for a health check, and she is in top health, vet was very impressed by her nice coat :D

thanks to everyone that gave advice, just wanted those who did to know that I did follow through :p

[all that glitters]

Good to know! Keep it up. I can't see these things happening if the human is the leader!

I would be stunned and shocked if my dog lip curled at me, I call the shots. I would be contacting a recommended behaviorist ASAP if my dog showed such behaviors towards me especially!

Hopefully the NILF program and really working on the alpha exercises helps heaps

[Staff'n'Toller]

Good to know! Keep it up. I can't see these things happening if the human is the leader!

I would be stunned and shocked if my dog lip curled at me, I call the shots. I would be contacting a recommended behaviorist ASAP if my dog showed such behaviors towards me especially!

Hopefully the NILF program and really working on the alpha exercises helps heaps

You would be stunned and shocked, but any owner should be stopping and thinking about why their dog feels they need to warn that they are uncomfortable with what is happening to them.

Checking leadership is great, but all dogs are different and as Corvus says, she is just communicating. The most important thing is changing the dogs' perception, this is a great opportunity for the OP to introduce some exercises that helps Sally to feel ok.

The collar grab game, and lots of hand targetting to get the dog to move around are both great examples.

I've taught all my dogs to move 'out the way' on command and to 'move over' to wherever I point and that is taught with lots of rewards in the beginning.

Cracking down on the NILIF is good, but changing perception will be more successful and create a longer lasting change.