Training Collars (prong Collars)

[bedazzledx2]

I don't use training tools other than a clicker and food and toy rewards so yes I have used my 'tools' and I like them!!!! (as does my dog!)

Have you worn one? How would you know?

Oh, and I don't think they inflict any pain at all. Standard choke chains, and especially halties, can be much worse (IMO again).

I completely despise the "have you worn one" argument.

Have you worn any training tool you may have used on your dog? Dogs are not people and some of them require different levels and types of training.

I use a prong collar, but before I bought one I went to a workshop with K9Pro, had it fitted correctly and was shown how to use it correctly.

ETA: Huga reminded me, I tried the prong collar to around the top of my arm.

[Aidan]

They are only aversive when you are actually correcting the dog otherwise they do nothing. Unlike a halti for example which is constantly aversive for the entire time that it is worn.

Not to single you out SK, as others have said similar, but I think in a thread where people are attempting to clear up unsubstantiated opinions about one tool we should be careful not to start making them about other tools.

True Many tools have their place when used correctly. However when it comes down to it I do believe that a halti (unlike a prong, a check chain or a front attaching harness) is a constant aversive to the dog in most cases.

Although I tend to recommend front-attaching harnesses now (where useful) I have quite a lot of experience with head halters, either head halters that I have been responsible for introducing or dogs who have come to me on them. It really is a very small minority, and even when used in the worst possible circumstances the dogs habituate very quickly. There have been some studies which support my experience also.

I spent about half an hour observing thousands of dogs on the last RSPCA Million Paws Walk and there were very few dogs in head halters who appeared to be uncomfortable, which was in stark contrast to the dogs on check chains. Presumably levels of education in tool use would be about equal here, most of the clubs support the use of check chains.

[Aidan]

I did try it on my leg. Not exactly the same, but still some indicator about the feeling. It wasn't painful.

Put it on your neck, attach one end of a 6' leash to a post then run to the end of the leash.

For the record, I am not seriously suggesting you try this. Just be realistic about what the tool does. Imagine you are riding your bike and your dog goes around the wrong side of a pole at speed. It is not what you do in training that is the issue, but what might happen by accident. A double-ended leash attached to a harness might be sensible, or you could use a Springer if they are still available.

[felix]

Put it on your neck, attach one end of a 6' leash to a post then run to the end of the leash.

Once I grow fur around my neck I might just do that.

[Dory the Doted One]

Put it on your neck, attach one end of a 6' leash to a post then run to the end of the leash.

Well that is hardly even a sensible test! Our necks don't even come close to approximating a dogs neck.

Oh...and I did know someone who tested it on their own neck....didn't attach themselves to a post, but they tested it on their neck. They still went ahead and used it on their dog, as in their opinion it wasn't that harsh.

At the end of the day, if we started training our dogs effectively as puppies we wouldn't have to resort to such tools. But many of us learn as we go by making some errors, some of us are still making them (I know I am, cos I ain't perfect), and many of us take on dogs that came with issues in the first place.

By chucking out tools that work to one degree or another we seriously limit our abilities to help all sorts of dogs will all sorts of personalities with their all sorts of problems.

And lets face it, you could ban it, but I'm sure someone in a desparate need would only reinvent it again. How many versions of harnesses and head collars are we up to now?

[Cosmolo]

I think when discussing tool use, its worthwhile to discuss 2 things across all tools. What happens to the dog AND handler when each tool is used correctly and appropriately?

What happens to the dog when each tool is used incorrectly?

I don't think its right to have cross over between these things as we're then comparing tools not on even footing- shouldn't compare a prong used correctly to a headcollar used incorrectly.

I still think (and i know some here disagree) that its valuable to think of tools generally in terms of their risk- there are higher risk tools and lower risk tools. My favourite pieces of equipment for training are flat collars, martingales and front connecting harnesses, because in inexperienced hands (which most of my clients are) they are lower risk.

I love e collars (prongs are irrelevant because they are not legal here) but i also accept that they are higher risk than the above and for that reason, i am pleased that they have a comparitively high price and are not readily available in most places. My clients that use them are trained to use them correctly- it would be nice if the same could be said for other, higher risk pieces of training equipment.

[Red Fox]

Although I tend to recommend front-attaching harnesses now (where useful) I have quite a lot of experience with head halters, either head halters that I have been responsible for introducing or dogs who have come to me on them. It really is a very small minority, and even when used in the worst possible circumstances the dogs habituate very quickly. There have been some studies which support my experience also.

I spent about half an hour observing thousands of dogs on the last RSPCA Million Paws Walk and there were very few dogs in head halters who appeared to be uncomfortable, which was in stark contrast to the dogs on check chains. Presumably levels of education in tool use would be about equal here, most of the clubs support the use of check chains.

Aidan, no offence but a client using a head halter fitted and used under the guidance of an experienced trainer (you) is worlds away from those with no idea who buy theirs down at the local supermarket, put it on their dog and proceed to jerk them around.

I would think (and only my oppinion here) that those who bother to consult with a trainer would take a fairly serious interest in their dogs welfare and that would influence how careful they are in choosing and using appropriate tools for their dog

Same goes for prong collars (or any tool really). And I think that we are very lucky in Australia that prong collars are NOT available in supermarkets or pet stores to all and sundry, which would open up the doors for them to be abused by people with little idea.

But at the end of the day you are right, this is a thread about prong collars: as per the OP "are they legal?" - in all states but Vic yes they are. And through other posts "are they safe" - of which my oppinion is if used correctly then yes they are, very much so :D

[Aidan]

Put it on your neck, attach one end of a 6' leash to a post then run to the end of the leash.

Well that is hardly even a sensible test! Our necks don't even come close to approximating a dogs neck.

That was kind of my point. Neither do our thighs and there is no way you are going to be able to give yourself the sort of correction that is possible with a prong collar without running to the end of a 6' leash. You can't make the comparison.

When a dog yelps when being given a correction, you can safely assume that the dog is feeling pain, and plenty of people give corrections strong enough to make a dog yelp while wearing a prong. There are even instructional materials out there that suggest things like "don't be put off if your dog yelps, that is when you know the correction has been effective because he is demonstrating submission" and other such patently ridiculous nonsense.

The other thing about perception of pain is that it is different to, say, the perception of weight. The more weight you lift, the more you need to notice that you are lifting more. With pain, the perception increases disproportionately to the amount of stimulus applied (which is why modern e-collars don't increase stimulus in a straight line). With a prong collar they are merely uncomfortable at normal levels of correction, but it is a fine line between correction and over-correction - particularly if you are on a bike and one of you stops suddenly without choice.

By chucking out tools that work to one degree or another we seriously limit our abilities to help all sorts of dogs will all sorts of personalities with their all sorts of problems.

Just to be clear, I have not suggested chucking out the tool. I'm just suggesting we are realistic about what they do so that they can be used sensibly. The biggest risk to the legal status of these tools is people going around misusing them. Most people don't misuse tools because they are cruel people, they misuse tools because they have beliefs or conditioning related to the tool and it's effects on the animal. Legislation is to protect animals from abuse, not to protect them from legitimate users.

[Aidan]

Although I tend to recommend front-attaching harnesses now (where useful) I have quite a lot of experience with head halters, either head halters that I have been responsible for introducing or dogs who have come to me on them. It really is a very small minority, and even when used in the worst possible circumstances the dogs habituate very quickly. There have been some studies which support my experience also.

I spent about half an hour observing thousands of dogs on the last RSPCA Million Paws Walk and there were very few dogs in head halters who appeared to be uncomfortable, which was in stark contrast to the dogs on check chains. Presumably levels of education in tool use would be about equal here, most of the clubs support the use of check chains.

Aidan, no offence but a client using a head halter fitted and used under the guidance of an experienced trainer (you) is worlds away from those with no idea who buy theirs down at the local supermarket, put it on their dog and proceed to jerk them around.

Exactly, which is why I mentioned the Million Paws Walk. Obviously a group of people interested in animal welfare, but none of them were clients of mine. As far as I know the obedience clubs only teach people how to use flat collars or check chains, so where are these people using head collars getting their education from? And why were those dogs the ones more likely to be walking nicely than the check chain group? Particularly when you consider that people would only buy a head halter if their dog was already a puller (which makes them more likely to be seen pulling and looking uncomfortable than dogs in check chains who may not have ever been pullers).

OK, it's a long way off being an actual study but the actual studies do support my observations. I believe myself to be objective, I have no agenda for head collars and in fact I have a few hundred dollars worth in stock that I haven't tried to sell since discovering how effective front-attaching harnesses are.

And through other posts "are they safe" - of which my oppinion is if used correctly then yes they are, very much so

No disagreement from me.

[Cosmolo]

A question for Aidan If it is that the level of correction causes pain, therefore causing a yelp- why is it that subsequent corrections, delivered at the same level more often than not do not elicit the same response. I don't think its as simplistic as stimulus Y causes pain causes yelp- surprise, expectation, understanding, anticipation etc all come into play IMO.

[Aidan]

A question for Aidan If it is that the level of correction causes pain, therefore causing a yelp- why is it that subsequent corrections, delivered at the same level more often than not do not elicit the same response. I don't think its as simplistic as stimulus Y causes pain causes yelp- surprise, expectation, understanding, anticipation etc all come into play IMO.

Yes, there are a number of factors. Habituation being a big one. Perception isn't black and white, and we learn from each experience. Put up a new sign on the road in your street and you'll notice it for a few days, then after a few years of driving past it someone will ask you what it says and you'll struggle to remember.

But have you seen anything other than pain (or perhaps more correctly, "distress") cause a dog to yelp in the same way?

ETA: for the record, I didn't say that only pain causes yelping therefore yelping must indicate pain, which seems to be how Stormie read it so maybe others did too?

Edited August 2, 2010 by Aidan

[stormie]

Yelping doesn't always mean pain. A dog can yelp from fear, shock and various other things.

If training with purely positive methods work for you, then awesome and well done. But not all dogs have an eager to please attitude and some are much more stubborn and need a little more. If learning by aversion works, then awesome. It might only take one or two pulls for the dog to realise it's uncomfortable and won't do it again. Done.

Dogs correct other dogs with warning then physical contact. Mothers will correct their young with a small nip and the pup learns that was a bad behaviour to do.

I'm all for positive training methods, but I also think aversive methods have their place and are understood by a dog as it's their own natural behaviour to inflict pain to correct.

eta: I have seen my dog scream like a banchee when having no pain inflicted at all. He was young and was scared of an approaching elderly Golden Retriever. Orbit lay down on his back screaming, when our other dog was still a couple of meters away.

Edited August 2, 2010 by stormie

[Aidan]

If training with purely positive methods work for you, then awesome and well done. But not all dogs have an eager to please attitude and some are much more stubborn and need a little more.

I'm not sure if you're addressing me here or not, but I have worked with a number of dogs, mostly aggressive dogs but all of them different. I am not purely positive, and in fact I would say I never have been. This is not a discussion about methods (or even about the validity of prong collars), it is a thread about clearing up an unsubstantiated misconception. I don't believe that adding to these unsubstantiated misconceptions is in the best interests of dogs, nor is the irony good for the value of this forum

I don't use a prong collar but I'm not arguing that anyone else shouldn't. Nor am I arguing that head halters are somehow better.

Yelping doesn't always mean pain. A dog can yelp from fear, shock and various other things.

OK. The dog yelps, whether it's pain or whether it's fear it's better not to pretend that it's just a mild discomfort if you're correcting to that level, intentionally or accidentally. It's still not good news for the dog running alongside your bicycle if something makes you stop in a hurry, and if you're training then he probably isn't learning what you would like him to learn.

Again, not an argument against prong collars. It's an argument addressing misconceptions.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Aidan

[Red Fox]

Exactly, which is why I mentioned the Million Paws Walk. Obviously a group of people interested in animal welfare, but none of them were clients of mine. As far as I know the obedience clubs only teach people how to use flat collars or check chains, so where are these people using head collars getting their education from?

Not necessarily. I was pretty much told to put my dog (4 month old puppy at the time) in a head collar by an instructor during our first class. I do think a lot of clubs (particularly the "purely positive" types one) do advocate the use of head collars. The RSPCA also sells them..

And why were those dogs the ones more likely to be walking nicely than the check chain group? Particularly when you consider that people would only buy a head halter if their dog was already a puller (which makes them more likely to be seen pulling and looking uncomfortable than dogs in check chains who may not have ever been pullers).

At a random guess? The people who's dogs reacted by screaming/shutting down/pawing and scratching at their faces/rolling on the ground etc. either persisted and managed to get their dog to accept the head collar before taking it out in public, or they gave up. :D

I do agree with you that I would never use a prong collar on a dog when riding a bike though. If I have a prong on my dog I want to know that I have 100% control over the correction (if needed at all). I also put a flat collar on him so that I can switch over if need be

[Aidan]

As far as I know the obedience clubs only teach people how to use flat collars or check chains, so where are these people using head collars getting their education from?

Not necessarily. I was pretty much told to put my dog (4 month old puppy at the time) in a head collar by an instructor during our first class. I do think a lot of clubs (particularly the "purely positive" types one) do advocate the use of head collars. The RSPCA also sells them..

I don't think we have any purely positive clubs, unless things have changed very recently. I'm pretty sure most obedience clubs discourage equipment which cannot be worn in a trial also.

If I have a prong on my dog I want to know that I have 100% control over the correction (if needed at all). I also put a flat collar on him so that I can switch over if need be

And it's exactly that sort of informed use that I would encourage, and that tends to avoid blanket bans.

[huski]

My local obedience club encourages peope to use head collars all the time, even on young pups. They sell them at the club house and quite a few dogs wear them even in the more advance classes I know quite a few other clubs around that are the same.

[Steve K9Pro]

A: It has also been said that prong collars don't "inflict any pain at all". It is not in the best interest of dogs and the people who own them to perpetuate myths like these.

K9: Absolutely, the same needs to be said for all tools, Head Halters, Harnesses etc.

Of course prong collars provide an aversive, this aversive is what makes the behaviour change. How much aversive should be the question though? and at what risk?

I think the remote electronic training collar is a great tool, I hated the first ones I was shown that had only recdiculously high levels...

You can hurt a dog on a prong collar, it simple, attach a fool to it.

BD: I don't use training tools other than a clicker and food and toy rewards so yes I have used my 'tools' and I like them!!!! (as does my dog!)

K9: I like these tools too, I favour training in drive but it isnt always the best course for all dogs, wish it was though!

A: I spent about half an hour observing thousands of dogs on the last RSPCA Million Paws Walk and there were very few dogs in head halters who appeared to be uncomfortable.

K9: I dont think that is a reliable test though, dogs in this environment would be likely highly distracted or in the presence of reward (other dogs / arousal / activity) so this is quite often enogh of a distraction to over come high level aversives or stress.

I have seen a dog hit by a car, broken leg, bone through skin, not 5 minutes later mount another dog being walked down the street I would say the broken leg would be quite an aversive, just not enough.

A: Put it on your neck, attach one end of a 6' leash to a post then run to the end of the leash.

K9: well that would be the attaching a fool part, I dont think I would run that test on a flat collar.

A: Imagine you are riding your bike and your dog goes around the wrong side of a pole at speed. It is not what you do in training that is the issue, but what might happen by accident.

K9: Imagine if your dog runs in front of your bike causing a fall, and you or your dog are injured? Regardless of the collar used, there is always risk.

The prong collar wasnt designed to be attached to a leash and that leash attached to a bike, or a 6 foot leash and send the dog running. This is simply missuse of the tool?

I would be running a wide strap harness and a springer bike attachment, because that would be the right tool for that activity, but the Springer and harness would be equally inapropriate for training a dog to walk on a loose leash as a prong is for attaching the dog to a bike...

A: When a dog yelps when being given a correction, you can safely assume that the dog is feeling pain,

K9: I am sure you have seen / heard a dog that has been startled vocalise Aidan? I am sure that I have heard a dog make noise without pain.

Edited August 2, 2010 by K9Pro

[Steve K9Pro]

A: and plenty of people give corrections strong enough to make a dog yelp while wearing a prong. There are even instructional materials out there that suggest things like "don't be put off if your dog yelps, that is when you know the correction has been effective because he is demonstrating submission" and other such patently ridiculous nonsense.

K9: This style of training though isnt restricted to prongs, but the style of training and force used.

Limits being set is a neccessity in all styles of training, if you dont limit the amount of food your treats your dogs gets, that can be harmful too.

A: With a prong collar they are merely uncomfortable at normal levels of correction, but it is a fine line between correction and over-correction - particularly if you are on a bike and one of you stops suddenly without choice.

K9: Maybe I use them differently Aidan, but I dont think the line is fine at all and the people I teach to use them arent over correcting (or correcting to the level of vocalisation or submission). I also dont hook them to bikes though

I think it is inaccurate to quote the over correction that happens if you hook a dog to a bike with a prong collar when any dog hooked to a bike with a solid connection and collar is going to be jerked horribly if the bike stops suddenly.

If I was to take a dog on a bike, I would be teaching the dog how to work with me, without a prong collar. If I was faced with a dog that was an insane puller, I would not be starting that dog on a bike until I trained some leash manners.

A: Just to be clear, I have not suggested chucking out the tool. I'm just suggesting we are realistic about what they do so that they can be used sensibly. The biggest risk to the legal status of these tools is people going around misusing them. Most people don't misuse tools because they are cruel people, they misuse tools because they have beliefs or conditioning related to the tool and it's effects on the animal. Legislation is to protect animals from abuse, not to protect them from legitimate users.

K9: I agree 100% with you on teaching people what tools do and how to use them, but when it comes to how laws are created, I think your off. The law in Vic is not based on any fact or abuse, speak to Erny on this one...

Legisltations and laws are created by Politicians, for Politicians.

It is true that Prong Collars are banned in Victoria, but they are legal averywhere else, silly to have one country with various rules meaning, you have to alter your dog training tool box when you cross the border.

Some people base the fact that they are illegal in Vic as a good enough reason to think Prong collars are always about cruelty, my argument is this: -

Prong collars are legal in all states except Victoria, Euthanising your dog is 100% legal in all states.

I would also like to say that I dont think buying any tool and giving it a shot is the right way to go about training your dog, in my experience this just about always ends up in the dog paying the price...

Just re reading this, sorry if it seems I singled you out Aidan, wasnt my intention.

Edited August 2, 2010 by K9Pro

[Aidan]

Hi Steve,

A: Put it on your neck, attach one end of a 6' leash to a post then run to the end of the leash.

K9: well that would be the attaching a fool part, I dont think I would run that test on a flat collar.

I wouldn't do it to a dog on a flat collar either, but I wouldn't pretend (as some others have) that I know what the dog is experiencing because I've put a prong around my thigh and given it a quick pop either!

A: Imagine you are riding your bike and your dog goes around the wrong side of a pole at speed. It is not what you do in training that is the issue, but what might happen by accident.

K9: Imagine if your dog runs in front of your bike causing a fall, and you or your dog are injured? Regardless of the collar used, there is always risk.

The prong collar wasnt designed to be attached to a leash and that leash attached to a bike, or a 6 foot leash and send the dog running. This is simply missuse of the tool?

It wasn't purely hypothetical, on p2 of this thread someone shared their opinion that prong collars do not cause pain and that they use one when riding with their dog.

A: When a dog yelps when being given a correction, you can safely assume that the dog is feeling pain,

K9: I am sure you have seen / heard a dog that has been startled vocalise Aidan? I am sure that I have heard a dog make noise without pain.

I've seen dog vocalise in their sleep. The condition was, taken in context, a strong correction on a prong collar. If it's pain, surprise, fear, or whatever - you put the collar on the dog you have to take responsibility for any distress you cause through misuse. If you are conditioned to believe that this distress is "just submission" or that it doesn't really exist then you make the sort of decisions that leads to abuse and causes people to want to ban prong collars. That's not good for anyone.

The actual effects of over-correction are not entirely predictable as you would know. Very mild corrections can cause anxiety if the dog does not feel that he can avoid the consequences. Nevertheless, over-correction has some unique problems that are difficult to return from and are hard to predict so we should avoid it where possible.

[Aidan]

Just re reading this, sorry if it seems I singled you out Aidan, wasnt my intention.

That's OK, the only problem seems to be that you think I have a problem with prongs or that I think these problems are unique to prongs - absolutely not!

I was not making a case against prongs, I was responding to unsubstantiated misconceptions made about them. If someone had said "head collars are always benign" or "you can't hurt a dog on a flat collar" I would have responded in the same way.