Training Collars (prong Collars)

[OSoSwift]

I think most people that have extremely strong opinions against prong collars have most likely never seen one in the flesh and never seen one in use.

[jacqui835]

The intention of a prong collar is not to hurt a dog, and if used correctly, they don't. They simply ensure that you are able to keep your dog's attention even around distractions and help you to teach your dog that when you give an order, you will ensure it is carried out (and have the means to do so). Some dogs have high prey drives, low focus, high dominance whatever, and to be able to safely walk them down the street even, some people will require a tool to prevent their dog from tuning them out and disregarding instructions.

If you consider the worst case scenarios from misuse of a training tool, prong collars imo would be one of the less dangerous ones when compared to check chains and haltis...

[corvus]

I think most people that have extremely strong opinions against prong collars have most likely never seen one in the flesh and never seen one in use.

Well.... I know a lot of US folks that are VEHEMENTLY against prongs because you can basically walk into any pet store and buy one and you do see people misusing them. When you look at pictures of these things they look like medieval torture devices. OH asked me once what a prong was and I pulled up a picture and he went "That looks cruel and painful." I had to agree. It does. Whether it is or isn't, it sure looks like it is. I don't blame people for knee-jerk reactions against them. They only work at all because they are aversive. It's a fair assumption given the look and the purpose that you would never want to use one. You would have to be introduced to them carefully to think otherwise.

[Erny]

I think most people that have extremely strong opinions against prong collars have most likely never seen one in the flesh and never seen one in use.

When you look at pictures of these things they look like medieval torture devices. OH asked me once what a prong was and I pulled up a picture and he went "That looks cruel and painful." I had to agree. It does. Whether it is or isn't, it sure looks like it is. I don't blame people for knee-jerk reactions against them. They only work at all because they are aversive. It's a fair assumption given the look and the purpose that you would never want to use one. You would have to be introduced to them carefully to think otherwise.

You're right, Corvus - they do look awful and many people judge them on looks without enquiring further. And yes, they work on the "aversive" (discomfort) factor. Just as check chains, head collars, no-pull harnesses etc do. Funnily enough (actually, "sadly" would be the operative word) people go for things such as head collars because they look more benign and don't give a second's thought about what they might be doing with them and how it might be affecting their dog. People do need to be introduced to them to think otherwise, but no more carefully than they SHOULD be introduced to any of the other training tools that are even more readily and easily available for purchase. In a way, the benefit of the PPCollar looking like a medieval torture device, whilst having the disadvantage that people shut their minds to it before they even understand it, has the advantage that people who get past that first bias and inadequate understanding are more conscientious of how they use it.

Well.... I know a lot of US folks that are VEHEMENTLY against prongs because you can basically walk into any pet store and buy one ...

Are the US people you know also "vehemently" against the other tools that you can also walk into any pet store and buy?

I'm not against tools just because they can be bought via a pet store (or Supermarket !!! ) but I am against training gear being sold via places and by people who haven't got a clue about them.

... and you do see people misusing them.

Even more commonly (I've never seen evidence of harm via the use of the PPCollar, even in lesser experienced hands) with head collars; etc.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Erny

[Red Fox]

Well.... I know a lot of US folks that are VEHEMENTLY against prongs because you can basically walk into any pet store and buy one and you do see people misusing them.

Well fortunately we live in Australia, where people can't "basically walk into any pet store and buy one"

There are people in the US who are VEHEMENTLY against abortion too... doesn't make them right.

When you look at pictures of these things they look like medieval torture devices. OH asked me once what a prong was and I pulled up a picture and he went "That looks cruel and painful." I had to agree. It does. Whether it is or isn't, it sure looks like it is. I don't blame people for knee-jerk reactions against them.

Hmmm so you are agreeing with people commenting on something that they dont understand? Perhaps if these same people knew how dangerous some other "tools" can be in comparison they would think twice..

They only work at all because they are aversive. It's a fair assumption given the look and the purpose that you would never want to use one. You would have to be introduced to them carefully to think otherwise.

They are only aversive when you are actually correcting the dog otherwise they do nothing. Unlike a halti for example which is constantly aversive for the entire time that it is worn.

eta, as Erny already stated:

PPCollars apply discomfort just like the rest of our training tools. The difference is that they apply it to the skin which is good, because that is where most of our sensitive nocireceptors are. Which means a desired response is more likely without the physical correction being required to be as strong as it might need to be with many of the other of the listed training tools. Which means less/no impact on muscle or skeletal structure yet also, in many instances, faster learning which is often for the good of the dog in the shorter and longer term.

There's a bit more to it than "They only work at all because they are aversive" dont you think?

Edited August 1, 2010 by SecretKei

[OSoSwift]

I agree they "LOOK" terrible, but as I have never seen one in the flesh, never seen one used I am yet to pass a solid judgment.

Also with the breed I have it is highly unlikely I would need them and I train from day dot how to walk on a normal collar.

I for one, hate it when people have a dog that pulls so wack it in a harness. All they do it help it to pull harder.

One day if or when I have a dog that needs more than I have, I may have to look at one with all the facts and then decide what I think.

I have also seen many good things describing how and why they work and the action that they use to work. That has helped me not to bag something just on how it looks

[Aidan3]

They are only aversive when you are actually correcting the dog otherwise they do nothing. Unlike a halti for example which is constantly aversive for the entire time that it is worn.

Not to single you out SK, as others have said similar, but I think in a thread where people are attempting to clear up unsubstantiated opinions about one tool we should be careful not to start making them about other tools.

[KitKat]

I read it as more that people consider the halti's etc as 'soft option' as opposed to the prong being a 'hard option' - both can cause damage with misuse or lack of knowledge, but both can create improvement if used corectly. However the halti in it's design can be a constant aversive due to where it sits and can irritate the dog, even not fitting it properly can make it more of an aversive - however it is marketed as a no fail soft/gentle option. The prong collar by the look of it is seen as a harsh and cruel option - when used sensibly, let alone correctly, is actually a 'nicer' option then many other tools out there, not for everyone - but no tool is.

[bedazzledx2]

Have you worn one? How would you know?

Oh, and I don't think they inflict any pain at all. Standard choke chains, and especially halties, can be much worse (IMO again).

[Aidan3]

I can only respond to what has been said. In a thread about clearing up an unsubstantiated misconception I think we should try to stick to the facts so that people can make informed judgements. It was said as a general statement of fact, which it is not. It has also been said that prong collars don't "inflict any pain at all". It is not in the best interest of dogs and the people who own them to perpetuate myths like these. Something that might happen a small proportion of the time should not be passed off as something that happens all the time, nor should it be passed off as something that never happens at all.

[corvus]

The prong collar by the look of it is seen as a harsh and cruel option - when used sensibly, let alone correctly, is actually a 'nicer' option then many other tools out there, not for everyone - but no tool is.

Says who? Did a dog that has worn all of them tell you which one he preferred?

Aversive is aversive. There is always "more to it" when it comes down to use and individual animals, but I didn't comment on the "more to it". I said they work because they are aversive, which they undeniably are. Or they wouldn't work.

Not all training tools "apply discomfort". And we all know there are degrees of discomfort dependent on the individual dog's pain and fear threshold, the circumstances in which the discomfort is delivered, the opportunities available to control the discomfort, and the "level" of discomfort delivered by the one comfortably standing at the other end of the leash. We can't quantify a lot of those variables. But we know it suppresses behaviour, therefore, it must be aversive, and that's about the only thing we really know about it.

[Erny]

Corvus - there are aversives which have the sensation of discomfort but also a bigger influence/impact on muscle/skeletal structure than others. I'd rather go for the one that produces the better learning response at the least amount of risk to the dog. And I can't right now think of any training restraint that doesn't produce some discomfort in one shape or form at some time or other. What ones did you have in mind that "don't apply discomfort"? And of course it goes without saying that what you might use on one dog might not suit another due to the type of dog, temperament, training objective, etc.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Erny

[redangel]

For one who has seen but never used a prong collar when I had dobes- are they not just like spurs for dogs not unlike those riders used to use????? Of course they are not pain free.....dogs do not behave because of how they look!

In skilled trained hands they may be an effective tool where all other methods have been used and it is a last choice move, I shudder to think there is no licence of use and that the 'average joe' can purchase these freely IMO.

[huski]

I shudder to think there is no licence of use and that the 'average joe' can purchase these freely IMO.

I feel that way about a lot of training tools, not just prong collars. IMO they are hardly the most dangerous or most risky training tool you can use.

[~SL~]

Have you worn one? How would you know?

Oh, and I don't think they inflict any pain at all. Standard choke chains, and especially halties, can be much worse (IMO again).

I completely despise the "have you worn one" argument.

Have you worn any training tool you may have used on your dog? Dogs are not people and some of them require different levels and types of training.

I use a prong collar, but before I bought one I went to a workshop with K9Pro, had it fitted correctly and was shown how to use it correctly.

ETA: Huga reminded me, I tried the prong collar to around the top of my arm.

Edited August 1, 2010 by StaffordLove

[huga]

I love my dogs prong collar Without it, he wouldn't get walked as often as he does.

And yes, I have tried it - around my thigh. It pinches and is uncomfortable - not painful.

[corvus]

I've worn a collar. And that's why I use harnesses. I don't fit into the harnesses to try them. I was very careful about my selection, though. Rubbed my fingers against the hardest bits of the harness I could find and imagined where they would sit on my dogs and whether they would rub uncomfortably. I found when I looked for designs I thought would be comfortable I had ruled out most of the options. I seriously have 5 or 6 brands of harness knocking around because several I tried I decided looked uncomfortable. Needless to say, I would be a desperate person to decide to use a prong.

I think what a dog "requires" to learn something is one of the least variable things in dog training, really. They all learn in much the same way. Which tool you use is surely very much dependent on what you are prepared to do and your own skill as a trainer, I think. Which is more about you than the dog, wouldn't you agree?

[BJean]

I think what a dog "requires" to learn something is one of the least variable things in dog training, really. They all learn in much the same way. Which tool you use is surely very much dependent on what you are prepared to do and your own skill as a trainer, I think. Which is more about you than the dog, wouldn't you agree?

Are you a professional dog trainer Corvus?

How many dogs have you trained / overseen?

Edited August 1, 2010 by lilli

[Red Fox]

They are only aversive when you are actually correcting the dog otherwise they do nothing. Unlike a halti for example which is constantly aversive for the entire time that it is worn.

Not to single you out SK, as others have said similar, but I think in a thread where people are attempting to clear up unsubstantiated opinions about one tool we should be careful not to start making them about other tools.

True Many tools have their place when used correctly. However when it comes down to it I do believe that a halti (unlike a prong, a check chain or a front attaching harness) is a constant aversive to the dog in most cases.

Have you worn one? How would you know?

Yes I have. Before I put my dog in a prong I put it around the top of my leg (directly on the skin) and gave myself an almighty correction (as in as hard as I could). Did it hurt? At that level yes it did - it pinched/stung my skin. But no-where near as much as the check chain. And when popped at the level which I use for my dog it was more irritating than painful.

For one who has seen but never used a prong collar when I had dobes- are they not just like spurs for dogs not unlike those riders used to use????? Of course they are not pain free.....dogs do not behave because of how they look!

In skilled trained hands they may be an effective tool where all other methods have been used and it is a last choice move, I shudder to think there is no licence of use and that the 'average joe' can purchase these freely IMO.

No, nothing of the sort. The prongs are blunt, when the collar is tightened they move at an angle and 'pinch' - they do not press directly into the dogs skin.

[felix]

Have you worn one? How would you know?

Oh, and I don't think they inflict any pain at all. Standard choke chains, and especially halties, can be much worse (IMO again).

I did try it on my leg. Not exactly the same, but still some indicator about the feeling. It wasn't painful.