Training Collars (prong Collars)

[Steve K9Pro]

A: I wouldn't do it to a dog on a flat collar either, but I wouldn't pretend (as some others have) that I know what the dog is experiencing because I've put a prong around my thigh and given it a quick pop either!

K9: I guess the idea of popping it on peoples legs helps understand it doesnt have to be a high aversive, they look worse than they are / feel. No different to me (and I guess every e collar trainer) using the remote on people to demonstrate what the feel can or should be like.

A: It wasn't purely hypothetical, on p2 of this thread someone shared their opinion that prong collars do not cause pain and that they use one when riding with their dog.

K9: I havent done it, in their case they may be right? if the dog never applies tension on the leash, it wont be aversive, but for the reasons you stated, I would chose something else.

I've seen dog vocalise in their sleep. The condition was, taken in context, a strong correction on a prong collar. If it's pain, surprise, fear, or whatever - you put the collar on the dog you have to take responsibility for any distress you cause through misuse.

K9: Agree 100% there, it should always be part of the trainers assessment to address any stress in any training program.

If you are conditioned to believe that this distress is "just submission" or that it doesn't really exist then you make the sort of decisions that leads to abuse and causes people to want to ban prong collars. That's not good for anyone.

K9: Yeah true too, and I guess people these days are being commended for achieving "calm, submissive energy" lol

The actual effects of over-correction are not entirely predictable as you would know. Very mild corrections can cause anxiety if the dog does not feel that he can avoid the consequences. Nevertheless, over-correction has some unique problems that are difficult to return from and are hard to predict so we should avoid it where possible.

K9: In fact, correction of any type can have these effects, as someone mentioned, best to train them right first, rather than trying to correct mistakes, but hindsight is powerful in many...

[Steve K9Pro]

A: That's OK, the only problem seems to be that you think I have a problem with prongs or that I think these problems are unique to prongs - absolutely not!

K9: No not at all, I really just answered the points that I needed to clarify for myself.

I was not making a case against prongs, I was responding to unsubstantiated misconceptions made about them. If someone had said "head collars are always benign" or "you can't hurt a dog on a flat collar" I would have responded in the same way.

K9: No drama at all mate, the beauty of dogs is that, there is no "always" lol.

In fact anyone reading this should know that I have a referral program which lists trainers and behaviourists I feel are helpful in areas I am not, Aidan is on that list as I support his work 100%

[felix]

A: It wasn't purely hypothetical, on p2 of this thread someone shared their opinion that prong collars do not cause pain and that they use one when riding with their dog.

K9: I havent done it, in their case they may be right? if the dog never applies tension on the leash, it wont be aversive, but for the reasons you stated, I would chose something else.

I used prong collars when riding a bike. My dog never pulled when I used prong collars, so there was no negative effects on her at all (IMO of course). How would harness prevent the dog from pulling you down?

That was the only way I wood ride a bike with her, cause I didn't want to be pulled under a car or something. And the leash was not attached to the bike, but was in my hand. That is the thing, she never, ever pulled when having a prong collar on her. And, if you just put it the other way around you could use it as any other martingale collar.

Personally, I don't understand all the drama, they are used in Europe for ages with great success.

[Steve K9Pro]

F: I used prong collars when riding a bike. My dog never pulled when I used prong collars, so there was no negative effects on her at all (IMO of course). How would harness prevent the dog from pulling you down?

K9: Thats a good question Felix, I would train the dog to not apply tension to the leash, perhaps using a prong collar, and then progress to a flat collar. I would then train the dog to run along next to the bike using the harness.

Once the dog is trained not to pull on the leash, this isnt hard.

That was the only way I wood ride a bike with her, cause I didn't want to be pulled under a car or something. And the leash was not attached to the bike, but was in my hand. That is the thing, she never, ever pulled when having a prong collar on her. And, if you just put it the other way around you could use it as any other martingale collar.

K9: Yep this is true, you can reverse the collar and it is like a chain mart ;)

Personally, I don't understand all the drama, they are used in Europe for ages with great success.

K9: Yep with you there!

[Erny]

Put it on your neck, attach one end of a 6' leash to a post then run to the end of the leash.

Would you try the same test with a head-collar on your face?

[Erny]

A: Just to be clear, I have not suggested chucking out the tool. I'm just suggesting we are realistic about what they do so that they can be used sensibly. The biggest risk to the legal status of these tools is people going around misusing them. Most people don't misuse tools because they are cruel people, they misuse tools because they have beliefs or conditioning related to the tool and it's effects on the animal. Legislation is to protect animals from abuse, not to protect them from legitimate users.

K9: I agree 100% with you on teaching people what tools do and how to use them, but when it comes to how laws are created, I think your off. The law in Vic is not based on any fact or abuse, speak to Erny on this one...

Legislations and laws are created by Politicians, for Politicians.

My highlights

Ain't it a fact.

Aidan - When Victorian Govt banned use of the PPCollar, I was puzzled, as I had many years of excellent experience/s and results with their use. But I figured the Government couldn't/wouldn't have passed a law to ban unless they had good reason. How wrong was I ..... a couple of hundred dollars later in exchange for some documents via Freedom of Information, hours of reading and learning that the Government acknowledge (in writing) that "There is no record of evidence of harm" from the use of PPCollars. (Can the same be said for the other of the commonly used training tools that are employed by the majority of the general dog-owning public? - Rhetorical question, no need to answer.)

The RSPCA's supportive submission content? "The regulation is in line with its policies." (And going by what the FOI documents provided me, that was NOT a summary of the RSPCA's submission in so far as the PPCollar regulation to ban was concerned - that was it, total.)

Yeah - wow!! That's really profound and evidential. Not. ;)

I'm sorry to go on about it - I know it is not the thread topic. But I'm cross that this regulation was passed on absolutely NO GROUNDS and in complete defiance to the Laws of Natural Justice and Procedural Fairness and am somewhat incensed at the arrogance of our Victorian Government and how stupid they must think we are, notwithstanding the very logical, sensible, educated and knowledgeable submissions it received objecting to the passing of the regulation.

I have seen dogs that have needed a physical correction to stop dangerous behaviour fast (so that other reinforcing methods may be applied to the resultant preferred behaviour). I have seen dogs ignore correction after correction from the use of other training tools. Doesn't mean no damage is occurring - just means that whatever drive they are in is more than what that correction can deliver. Where a PPCollar would deliver a more effective correction without the potential for damage that was occurring. But we here in Victoria aren't allowed to use them. And they call that "Legislation to protect animals from abuse" ??? Sorry - even the Govt have no direct response that properly answers why or how they have done what they are done by the passing of our regulation. Well - they do have an answer, but they don't seem to want to give it. And it is my strong guess that it has absolutely NOTHING to do with animal abuse/cruelty at all.

Oh - and I worked with a little dog more recently (Pom x). Loose Lead Walking exercise. Used no more than my ring finger to create the "pop" on the lead. Every time I "popped" the little dog "pipped". This, to a flat collar.

Hey Aidan - I'm not meaning to single you out either .

And I agree with you - ANY piece of equipment has the ability to cause pain when mis-used, including the PPCollar.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Erny

[Red Fox]

Personally, I don't understand all the drama, they are used in Europe for ages with great success.

;) Me either.

[Aidan3]

Put it on your neck, attach one end of a 6' leash to a post then run to the end of the leash.

Would you try the same test with a head-collar on your face?

No. But I wouldn't put one on my thigh then claim I had some understanding of the dog's perception either. And if someone told me they did this, or that they ran their dog alongside their bike on one, I would respond similarly. Call me a fool, but I stopped worrying about upsetting the apple cart a long time ago.

[Aidan3]

I used prong collars when riding a bike. My dog never pulled when I used prong collars, so there was no negative effects on her at all (IMO of course). How would harness prevent the dog from pulling you down?

Yes, they sure do stop pulling. I use a Springer, the spring takes all the power out of the dog and the apparatus holds them in a safe position. An alternative is to use a double ended leash, with one end attached to the harness and the other to the prong collar (which might be effective on the dead ring).

[Red Fox]

Put it on your neck, attach one end of a 6' leash to a post then run to the end of the leash.

Would you try the same test with a head-collar on your face?

No. But I wouldn't put one on my thigh then claim I had some understanding of the dog's perception either. And if someone told me they did this, or that they ran their dog alongside their bike on one, I would respond similarly.

Aidan, I'd be quite willing to put one around my own neck and have someone else pop it if that makes you feel better

I understand what you are saying, but the point people are trying to make re putting the prong collar around their thigh/arm and popping it is that it's not a particularly painful or harsh sensation (as someone who has never seen/used a prong collar may believe it to be). The way in which the dog percieves the correction is dependent on a lot of other factors IMO, not just force.

Call me a fool, but I stopped worrying about upsetting the apple cart a long time ago.

:D

[Staranais]

I'm another one who thinks it gives some understanding to use a tool on yourself first. Not a perfect understanding - people and dogs perceive things differently, heck, even different people perceive things differently. But I do think it gives some understanding. If it hurts me - it's likely to hurt my dog. If it doesn't hurt me at all - it's unlikely to hurt my dog. etc.

To the poster who got told off by the vet nurse for using a pinch collar - where I study, vets & vet nurses get no factual information about the prong collar at all. Only misinformation. Sad, but true.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Staranais

[bedazzledx2]

What makes you think my dog isn't in drive? A big misconception that clicker training is akin to 'posting a letter' Click and reward can be food, tug or a game...whatever floats the dog's boat. I would hope that you understand that today's clicker training is all about having the dog fully engaged in the training game.

BD: I don't use training tools other than a clicker and food and toy rewards so yes I have used my 'tools' and I like them!!!! (as does my dog!)

K9: I like these tools too, I favour training in drive but it isnt always the best course for all dogs, wish it was though!

[Steve K9Pro]

What makes you think my dog isn't in drive? A big misconception that clicker training is akin to 'posting a letter' Click and reward can be food, tug or a game...whatever floats the dog's boat. I would hope that you understand that today's clicker training is all about having the dog fully engaged in the training game.

BD: I don't use training tools other than a clicker and food and toy rewards so yes I have used my 'tools' and I like them!!!! (as does my dog!)

K9: I like these tools too, I favour training in drive but it isnt always the best course for all dogs, wish it was though!

K9: sorry you missunderstood, I favour TID, which includes marker work, just can't be used to solve every problem with every dog.

[Erny]

No. But I wouldn't put one on my thigh then claim I had some understanding of the dog's perception either.

I like to try equipment out on myself when it is possible. I have done so with check chains, PPCollar and also with different stim levels of the E-collar. I have similated a head-collar, but not to the extremes - it is pretty easy to imagine how easy neck injury could occur. I also know how painful a pinch under the armpits are. I do think it helps to empathise with the dog in at least knowing what the dog will feel - at least give some idea of assimilation in that respect. I don't think it goes to "understanding" because to me that word in the context you've used it in (and perhaps someone else used it in) suggests there is an understanding at both a physical and psychological level. The physical is easy to assess. The psychological is not something that every dog-owner would have an inkling of.

Do you not think that dog's have the ability to feel the same or similar sensations as us? I'm sure "hot" is hot to them, just as cold is. Hurt is hurt. Every dog, just as every human, is an individual and levels of sensation would be different from one to another. But there is an approximation, otherwise how or why would Doctors, as they are about to give you a tetnus booster, will tell you "there is just going to be a bit of a sting", LOL ???

Edited August 2, 2010 by Erny

[Aidan3]

Do you not think that dog's have the ability to feel the same or similar sensations as us? I'm sure "hot" is hot to them, just as cold is. Hurt is hurt. Every dog, just as every human, is an individual and levels of sensation would be different from one to another. But there is an approximation, otherwise how or why would Doctors, as they are about to give you a tetnus booster, will tell you "there is just going to be a bit of a sting", LOL ???

I think they do, not the same but certainly similar. Learning is very similar, of course.

Although mine don't seem to feel cold

[Quickasyoucan]

I put mine (well my dogs) on my neck and popped it before I used it. Didn't mind it actually

Seriously, for me I think if used under supervision as part of a training plan prongs definitely have their place. I rarely had to actually pop mine when using it and it sure helps make life easier if you inherit a dog with issues, not everyone has their dog from a pup and the opportunity to teach loose lead walking from the get go.

Edited August 3, 2010 by Quickasyoucan

[KitKat]

Also...having a dog from a pup isn't necessarily going to stop their dog from having issues

[Dory the Doted One]

Well, I just got back from seeing a dog I haven't seen for quite some time. Who was doing amazingly great on a prong collar

was being a calm and well mannered puppy. Till some other person(not the owner) told them not to use the prong and to

let THEM train her on a choke chain.

Yeah. I'm real thrilled. Whoever it was has almost ruined a good dog. And the Tool in use was a choke chain.

It's not a physical injury, but I hope we can now get the dog over it's fear aggression towards other dogs now. ;)

Idiots that think every dog that barks at another dog is doing it because it is being 'dominant'. There is not a smiley that fully reflects

my feelings right now.