Another Clicker Training Question

[Ravyk]

Hope you don't get sick of me too much!

I have two dogs I am clicker training. Spot has caught on extremely well and is moving forward in leaps and bounds. Peggie is definitely getting it but seems to be getting confused.

I started off teaching them to 'drop' with the clicker, they already knew drop but I just did it to mainly build my confidence. Luring them into drop, clicking and rewarding. Both got the hang of this well and I've added the command drop into it with no hassles. They both are now dropping to a hand signal and voice command, then being rewarded with a click and treat. Haven't moved on to slowly phasing out the rewards yet.

Today I started to teach them 'shake'. Spot got it really well and has gone ahead in leaps and bounds, and will 'shake' on command already. He kind of knew the trick beforehand.

Peggie is getting a little confused. She still thinks she needs to 'drop' to get the treat. She automatically goes into a drop when I start training. Which is a little annoying as I need her sitting to teach shake. When I do get her sitting and start training, I lift her paw and click and reward. She hasn't quite got the hang of offering me her paw yet [but I don't expect her too, she learns slower than Spot]. I'll swap back to Spot and then to Peggie again and she goes back to dropping to get the reward [not that I am clicking it]. I can see that she is getting confused, but I don't know how to fix it.

What am I doing wrong?

[corvus]

Find her something really really easy to click her for. Like eye contact.

ETA: take the cues out and try not to help them see what you want them to do. The click will tell them what you want them to do. Concentrate on clicking a lot in a short space of time. Train for just a minute or two and make sure that whatever you're doing you are clicking and treating every few seconds. If she still gets confused, click for any movement at all. Click for as she gets up from a down. Just be careful she knows what she's being clicked for. I found with Kivi he is much more comfortable with something obvious that he has to think about doing rather than things he does without thinking, if that makes sense. Targeting is another good one to start with.

Edited July 31, 2010 by corvus

[Kavik]

When I use a clicker, I am usually shaping. So I think you are trying to train the way you have before, but adding a clicker. What you need to do is change the way you think about your training. You are showing them/helping them in what you want them to do at the moment. What the clicker is great for is teaching them how to figure out what you want them to do without you showing them. At the beginning, when you haven't done it before, it is difficult and frustrating, as they may not want to offer many behaviours, just safe ones (like drop for you) which they know gets paid.

I would start with something simple like targeting, which gives them something external to focus on and is pretty obvious, unlike lifting a leg. If they drop, ignore it or move a bit so they stand up, reset them. When I started teaching my dogs to walk backwards, Zoe and Diesel only wanted to offer drop at first (Diesel still tends to a little bit, he is slower to catch on with shaping than the others). I just moved so they got up, and rewarded any leg movement.

Reward increments of improvement. Eg targeting - reward looking at the target (can be your hand, lid of a container, etc), then reward moving towards the target, then reward touching the target (within a time frame, not all in the same session).

[bedazzledx2]

When you are free shaping it can also be useful to click and throw the food so that they are able to offer the behaviour again for you to click and treat.

[Ravyk]

Ok thanks heaps guys. I might see if I can find some good books on clicker training. Do you have any recommendations?

[pipsqueak]

http://www.clickertraining.com/what_is_clicker_training

[Kavik]

Here is another useful article

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2...gtheclicker.htm

[OSoSwift]

Also remember that they are all so different and what works for one may not for the other. It really helps you to think outside the square to figure out what turns them on to learn and how to approach things in a way they follow. It is great great fun.

You have some great info - enjoy

[corvus]

And you can always film it and ask for someone to look at what you're doing. I found it VERY helpful to have someone see what I was doing and comment.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

http://www.clickandtreat.com/Clicker_Train...r_training.html

So if your dog isn't used to "free shaping" it will take her a while to figure out she needs to do something different to get the click-treat.

Some trainers will always treat with the click with every click and some will click for every step in the right direction and only treat when the desired behaviour is achieved.

It's good to use a throwaway cue word when the dog is going in the right direction and only add the preferred cue word (command) when the dog can reliably repeat the behaviour. So I guess it pays to have each behaviour/command nailed before moving on to the next thing.

So to encourage your dog to "offer new behaviours", click on anything she does after you say "go" or whatever throw away word you choose. Do use a word like "oops" if she does something you don't want to see, but try to make it easy for her. What's something she does a lot like tilt her head, look at you, look at Spot? etc.

I keep forgetting what I've already taught dog and should practice eg "touch" touch my hand (with your nose), click and treat from other hand... It's so cute when she remembers though.

[Ravyk]

My main issue is that she doesn't offer other behaviours. Say if I offer my hand to her with nothing in it, she will nose it, nose it, nose it and then give up. Spot on the other hand will nose it, lick it, mouth it, paw it, put his head under it, etc.

I've been sent a video link to something I will try with her tomorrow. Its about paw targeting, hopefully it will help her learn to offer new actions.

Edited July 31, 2010 by Ravyk

[OSoSwift]

Some dogs have learned how to learn better and earlier than others.

Our now aged Stafford is the loveliest guy, but not the sharpest tool in the shed. He is my husbands dog and I was not allowed to interfere with his training. He was always easy going, he learnt the basics. He also learnt he had to wait until the second time he got given a command (OH always said things to him twice at least!). He was never required to learn much.

Fast forward three or so years and I decided to give training a go. I have never seen a more clueless dog. He had no idea how to offer. It took patience, time and lots more patience, he was noever going be an obedience star.

Basically he had never really learned how to learn.

It really doesn't matter what they are taught, it is the fact they learn how to learn. The earlier they do it the better it is down the track.

Peggy may just find it harder, offering a new behaviour may be completely foreign to her.

You need to figure out how to keep her confidence up, learn when you need to C/T so she is comfortable to keep trying. It is like someone is asking you to do things in a language you don't understand.

Baby steps, baby steps.

[Kavik]

My main issue is that she doesn't offer other behaviours. Say if I offer my hand to her with nothing in it, she will nose it, nose it, nose it and then give up. Spot on the other hand will nose it, lick it, mouth it, paw it, put his head under it, etc.

I've been sent a video link to something I will try with her tomorrow. Its about paw targeting, hopefully it will help her learn to offer new actions.

Hey she will nose it, that is great You could use that for targeting. click/treat when she puts her nose to your hand.

While you want them to offer behaviours you also then want to refine them - you don't want them offering random behaviours to a presented object forever.

I like to go into a session with an idea in my head of what I want to achieve that session. Sometimes you have to be quite precise - when teaching walking backwards I stared intently at legs and c/t for any movement, then movement backwards. Any, small movements in the right direction are good to start.

To get an idea of what it is like for the dog, get someone to clicker train you or you clicker train another person. Have an idea in your head what you want them to do - say lift their right hand up in the air, and later to refine that into doing circles with their right arm or something. Will give you an idea how difficult it is for the dog.

[corvus]

Also, some dogs really just don't like shaping. My older dog Kivi was clicker trained right from the start and we did lots of free shaping sessions with boxes and so forth. But as he got older he inexplicably became more and more anxious about shaping. He didn't want to offer anything, he didn't want to try, and he was just wanted to guess what I wanted from watching me. He was often frustrated. I could be clicking every second and still have him throw himself on the ground suddenly and whine and gnaw on my foot. I figured seeing as he so badly wanted direction I may as well give him direction and started target training him. His confidence soared and while it took a long time, it was worth every second to see him so excited by training. He loves it! I have taught him to target with his nose, both front paws, both hips, and now I'm teaching him to move his back feet and to hold two targets at once. His tolerance of shaping is much better, now, but I still have to be careful to stick to baby steps and very, very short sessions. I have to do a lot of what he knows and dot new things in there. In contrast, Erik lives for learning new things and is happy to do heaps of new things with just a few known things sprinkled in to keep him peppy.

I say watch very closely for signs of frustration, such as vocalising, defaulting repeatedly to known behviours and refusing to leave them, and displacement behaviours. Increase the criteria very slowly and go back to safe, known things before the dog gets too anxious or frustrated to be really enjoying it anymore. My Erik can totally handle a bit of frustration and I'll just keep working him until he figures it out, but Kivi I don't push much at all. I keep going if he just whines a little or barks once or twice, but if it keeps going and he starts lying down I go back to easy things he knows to keep his confidence high.

[m-j]

Hope you don't get sick of me too much! ;)

Today I started to teach them 'shake'. Spot got it really well and has gone ahead in leaps and bounds, and will 'shake' on command already. He kind of knew the trick beforehand.

Peggie is getting a little confused. She still thinks she needs to 'drop' to get the treat. She automatically goes into a drop when I start training. Which is a little annoying as I need her sitting to teach shake. When I do get her sitting and start training, I lift her paw and click and reward. She hasn't quite got the hang of offering me her paw yet [but I don't expect her too, she learns slower than Spot]. I'll swap back to Spot and then to Peggie again and she goes back to dropping to get the reward [not that I am clicking it]. I can see that she is getting confused, but I don't know how to fix it.

What am I doing wrong?

Probably nothing. Did you get Peggy to sit before you asked her to drop while she was learning to drop? If so maybe she is anticipating the drop and anything else you do is irrelevant. If so, I would start the handshake training while she is in a different position i.e. standing don't ask her to stand if she knows the stand cue or you may end up with the same problem. Once she has got the idea of offering the paw on cue and is doing it with confidence, then ask her to sit and then very quickly ask her offer the paw.

Just thoughts.

cheers

M-J