Food Reward V's Positive Reinforcement

[!Kristen!]

Pro's and Con's of food reward

I have always trained my dogs using a food reward because its easier and also more effective for a food obsessed dog. But the BIG problem with food rewards is that the dog grows to expect the food and when they dont get the food as a reward they give up. I also find thta the dog becomes dependent on food for training.

Pro's and Con's of positive rewards (i.e hugg's and lots of attention)

I just started this with our newest boy toby. I have found it much more effective and it helps join a bond between handler and dog. Toby is now so responsive when we ask him to do something, with or without food, were as with chanel i find that she is only really enthusiastic with a food reward.

What do you (Mainly) use as a reward? though this would be and interesting topic so see how it go's...

[MamaKat]

At the moment I'm finding it hard to get our boys to calm down when there is food around!!

Hugs & pats and "happy voice" as rewards are working for us!

[pgm]

I use praise exclusively and it works fine. Though I am inclined to believe that someone with good experience with using food will tell you that if your dog isn't working unless there's food you haven't taught him properly.

It's the same with any method, if you don't apply it correctly you'll have problems.

Good luck with your training though...

[Guest Tess32]

Anyone who swears that either will work on all dogs hasn't had a lot of dogs.

I don't think you can do either/or. Some dogs don't really care if they please you, others don't even think food is a reward, and some need a mixture of both.

The best reinforcer is simply - a reward the dog is happy and willing to work for and *wants* to work for. It's the dog who has to consider the reinforcer as great, not the trainer.

If the dog won't work without the food after a behaviour has been learnt then I think that's the fault of the trainer, not the method. Eg. When you teach a dog something using a food reward, you need to be able to gradually change the schedule of reinforcement to one that suits the behaviour - ie. "Sit" should not need a reinforcer every single time whereas with "come" you might want to. Most books I've read say variable reinforcement makes the behaviour stronger, but I have read one or two that swear by rewarding every time. That's a trainer's choice

Also puppies are more likely to work for praise than a 10 month old adolescent - I've seen a lot of people on groups I am on aghast that their previously obedient puppy no longer comes on command when there are birds or rabbits around!

Nat

[Rusky]

maybe you give too much food too often, the drive is for the reward be it pat click or food. They need to know it is a reward. So with food and positive reinforcement transfer the food to the positive, don't give big lots of food, just a nibble and make sure the reward is worth the work. If you are using food to train or to train to get attention make sure your dog is hungry.

I like a mixture of both food and PR.

I make nice liver treats I was given a recipe for and most doggies will do anything for them, even mine

Hope this makes sense, I guess there is no right or wrong, whatever works for your dog, if one method isn't doing it for you and your dog after a controlled persistant effort try another method, anything to grab their attention and to stick it to you.

[Pete]

I am not sure from reading your question that you fully understand what positive reinforcement is. A very basic definition:

---Positive reinforcement is the presentation of something pleasant or rewarding immediately following a behavior. It makes that behavior more likely to occur in the future, and is one of the most powerful tools for shaping or changing your pet’s behavior.----

So to use positive reinforcement you need to work out what your dog finds most rewarding which can of course be a variety of things.

The most rewarding thing for my dog is food, so if I train using positive reinforcement I use food rewards

[MaxSpots]

Molly (KelpieX) thrives on verbal praise, she's very responsive to tone of voice alone.

On the other hand our old Max (Dalmatian) wouldn't budge unless there was food involved, and definately had selective hearing.

[Mags]

Do not use food with our current adolescent at all - she is so food fixated that if you have treats in your pocket she is so focused on your pocket that she hears nothing. Praise reward on the other hand works wonders but it certainly depends on the individual dog.

[!Kristen!]

this isnt a question, just a poll to see what others use.

edited to ad: yes chanel was not taught properly. She was my first dog so i was bound to make a mistake. Just like anyone who is starting off with training a dog (for the first time).... there are always things that you would like to start over.

Do not use food with our current adolescent at all - she is so food fixated that if you have treats in your pocket she is so focused on your pocket that she hears nothing. Praise reward on the other hand works wonders but it certainly depends on the individual dog

same with chanel, but yes we are doing some training to help her calm down a bit. she only gets a food reward after she has done a new behaviour or after the training session is over. The rest of the time she gets a PR. She is slowly getting better.

Edited January 22, 2005 by social~butterfly

[Vickie]

What about toys? I use toys & tug almost exclusively for training.

[!Kristen!]

yeah we use toys aswell :D i found that they work great for an energetic puppy like toby

[Kavik]

I use food as part of my positive reinforcement reward schedule. I also use toys and games and pats - try to mix it up a bit. But mostly food as I find you can do many repetitions with food without the dog getting tired or bored. Every dog I have owned has been food motivated

[Rusky]

Just like anyone who is starting off with training a dog (for the first time).... there are always things that you would like to start over.

oh yes yes yes

If I could turn back time

[Rebanne]

I must be a dummy because I thought food rewards was positive training along with any thing else the dog values. If the dog is still reliant on food way off into the future than the food has not been used correctly. Same if it only performed if you had a toy in your hand, or continually told it what a good dog it was. You have to educate your dog to keep doing what you want it to do and if it does this, sometimes it will get a reward, sometimes it won't but the dog keeps working because it wants that reward, and sometimes you pay out! The dog never knows when you'll pay it so it keeps working.

[Rebanne]

this isnt a question, just a poll to see what others use.

Rewards are part and parcel of postive training. You can not train positively without giving the dog some sort of reward. You can however train negatively and give food as a treat. Plenty of the jerk and pull brigade think they are training positively because they also give out a bit of food occassionly. Postive training is way much more than offering a food reward, it's a lifestyle!

And yes, our dogs are our guinea pigs. We improve with each and every one of them.

[tommy15]

i used to just use happy voice and pats .. like K&C said. It worked great.

i had a few sessions with an agility trainer .. she was very good btw .. anyway she taught me that i wasnt using food rewards correctly .. and i saw that they are important if you do it correctly.

yes i was doing good, but since i learned that im doing better

[whatevah]

I use a mixture of food and toys. I use toys for drive, and food more for accuracy.

when I teach him weave poles, he drives through them because he knows that his toy is waiting at the end if he does it right. In agility I used food to get the contacts right.

Here is a picture of him weaving for his tennis ball.

Edited January 23, 2005 by Toilet Duck

[kamuzz]

The Kennel Club I used to go to banned food on the grounds that it would

1. distract the other dogs in the classs
   
2. foster a bond between you and your dog's stomach instead of with him directly
   
3. cause the dog to behave unpredictably in the absence of food
   

We were encouraged instead to use verbal praise (& physical pats etc) & to have a special toy

[Derharv GSD'S]

I use Positive reinforcement, my dogs respond so well to praise. I figure that in emergency situation like when your dog is chasing a cat across the road etc you may not have food available when you need to recall it? I suppose it depends on what stimulates your dog everyone is different, its what eva works for you

[Guest Tess32]

The Kennel Club I used to go to banned food on the grounds that it would

1. distract the other dogs in the classs
   
2. foster a bond between you and your dog's stomach instead of with him directly
   
3. cause the dog to behave unpredictably in the absence of food
   

We were encouraged instead to use verbal praise (& physical pats etc) & to have a special toy

So what happened to the dogs who didn't find verbal praise and toys a good enough reinforcement?

Sounds to me like they opted out on teaching food as reinforcement correctly and thought a ban was easier. Eek.

Nat