Accidental Bite?

[Erny]

A large dog that aggressively tries to bite will often break a finger, this still may happen with these gloves. Even the larger thicker gloves I tried first wouldnt be adequate protection for that.

Don't you have a pair of these ones, Steve?

They're a b*^gger for throwing orbee balls, though .

Edited August 3, 2010 by Erny

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: ;) I actually could not find a pair to try lol but the last time I saw you, I did notice your biceps were getting bigger, now I know why....

Edited August 3, 2010 by K9Pro

[Erny]

;) at K9Pro

[angelsun]

And what about when you don't have these handy?

K9: what happens if you dont have the tug handy? do you just feed your arm to the dog? How about realizing that tugging isn't always the BEST reward..there are others in case you weren't aware of that.

Would it not make more sense to teach the dog to respect fingers and hands and not make the mistake?

K9: Yes absolutely, you may have missed my earlier post in this thread that identified why bites can happen, but the gloves are to use WHILST the dog is learning to target. that's funny as I haven't had to worry about that, and manage to teach targetting with my index finger and a pat on the head....clearly I must still be in the dark ages as you refer later in your reply

How about teaching the instigator of the tug or reward to not make the mistake of missing the target/handling the tug incorrectly etc which results in a nip?

K9: Mistakes happen, and when they do, protective clothing can be helpful and again, whilst handlers are learning to use a tug, these can be handy. Right tool for the right job....and I don't mean gloves...how about a bigger tug?

Putting protective clothing on (when not training sports like schutzhund), is a bandaid.

K9: lol no band aid is what you use after you havent worn gloves lol... but seriously it isnt, this may be another case of "I havent tried it but it wont work because". My 6 yo does that with some foods I love how you consistantly put words in peoples mouths and claim that because someone disagrees with your methods, they are wrong or ignorant (def: not understanding) I have trained in schutzhund in case you missed that in my resume

Some new (and old) handlers start to add avoidant steps into their tug work as they have been bitten a few times, the dog cues off this and starts aiming at the hands, this of course is a handler error but again, it does happen and wont happen when the handler starts with gloves. I'm not sure where you get that part from *dog starts aiming at hands* but if you beleive that to be true..so be it....in my opinion, it simply means the handler has moved ahead too quickly or used the wrong/incorrect size reward.

If you as a handler are not comfortable, you will expect to see more nips/pinches which is in fact not creating a good behaviour for the dog.

K9: Correct, and some people are not comfortable because they are getting bitten during the learning phase, this leads to more poor tug handling. The gloves often produce a more relaxed handler.

The dog MUST learn to respect hands and body parts, regardless of how high of a reward is offered.

K9: I dont think anyone is saying, "wear these gloves and then let the dog bite your hands" but when you work multiple dogs as I do, dogs that are not mine, dogs that are untrained and puppies, bites will happen until the dog is taught to target better, in the interim, gloves. But you ARE in fact promoting the use of gloves, in fact you have people lined up to buy them if you get them in. How about instruction on how to target correctly without them?

This goes along as well for those show dogs that snap at bait etc....it's not that hard to teach them how to respect fingers and stop snapping, just as it's not hard to teach dogs to not miss the toy reward. We are talking about the average owner, rewarding their dog with a tug or play remember!

K9: Are we? says who? if we are then it may not be easy for them to teach their dogs to accurately target. I would also suggest that, Aussienot, Jeff Jones, Erny and Cosmolo arent average owners teaching their pets tug games....

Yes we are...although some as mentioned may be above average pet owners, these threads are read by MANY who are first time dog owners, moreso than those of us that have been around the block a time or two....first time pet owners NEED help to teach. Slapping a set of gloves on doesn't teach.

Important to remember that most handlers are not using the appropriate sized toy for the size of dog they are rewarding. That's HANDLER error and not the dogs.

K9: true, you will see in my post number 10 I have mentioned all of these things.

I would much rather teach the dog to respect my skin, than worry about whether I had my leather protective gloves on,

K9: maybe the dog will respect your skin better when you do? and what sort of toys do we often give our dogs to chew on....rawhide leather chew bones etc.....sorry....can't agree there at all.....skin/flesh is different by smell/taste/texture and a dog knows this

or worse, have to say to the dog "sorry, I can't play with you, I forgot my gloves in the house."

K9: OMG go back to the house and get them? gee.... you could also still just work without them, just as you do now... always the jokester....assuming we always train at home? Some of us do get out and for me, training happens all the time, not just in the back yard.....yes I work with out them but that is not the point of the statement...you imply that gloves should be mandatory and that without them, danger would happen....it's like those that choose to train ONLY using food rewards, wonder what happens when their pockets run dry?

Protective clothes in any type of activity are smart, if I was using a grinder I could say "I would rather learn how to hold the grinder so it doesnt shoot crap in my eye" or just wear the glasses, all the arguments of "what happens if I leave my glasses at home" still are the same arent they? Put teh gloves in your gear bag with your tugs.

I have played tug with dogs for 20 years plus, I can train a dog not to touch my hands, yes it isnt hard, once trained the dog will not target my hands, but he can still make a mistake or so can I.

There are dogs that have learned to target the hands of the handler because it makes (or has made) the handler let go or react, these dogs need to be trained the rule that "you touch my hands the game ends". To teach them this, they have to touch your hands so that you may mark the event that you dont want to see.

Our industry needs to come out of the dark ages and take care of handlers and dogs, gloves do both.

I've never felt training dogs is an industry, nor do I feel that I am in the dark ages...I've used tried and true methods, without force or intimidation for years.....and I take the blame when my dogs make a mistake, because I trained them. If that is dark ages training....so be it...I'll be happy to stay in a cave and train this way, but I know that I won't need gloves for tugging and I won't lose any blood either.

But Angelsun, no one is asking you to wear any...

No, but your posts imply that anyone that does anything contrary to your methods, is archaic or just plain irresponsible *see above comment re: dark ages*

I have tested a load of gloves from a few different industries, the tight fitting, highly protective non restricting ones that have beefed up protection in the high risk zones of the hand, work realy well! Try some gloves, it wont hurt!

and in my opinion, it won't help.....

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: what happens if you dont have the tug handy? do you just feed your arm to the dog?

A:How about realizing that tugging isn't always the BEST reward..there are others in case you weren't aware of that.

K9: are we now talking about methods or reinforcement? How about we stay on topic...

K9: Yes absolutely, you may have missed my earlier post in this thread that identified why bites can happen, but the gloves are to use WHILST the dog is learning to target.

A: that's funny as I haven't had to worry about that, and manage to teach targetting with my index finger and a pat on the head....clearly I must still be in the dark ages as you refer later in your reply

K9: Must be us in the dark ages here Down Under...

K9: Mistakes happen, and when they do, protective clothing can be helpful and again, whilst handlers are learning to use a tug, these can be handy.

A: Right tool for the right job....and I don't mean gloves...how about a bigger tug?

K9: Let me get this straight, you can teach the dog to respect your skin by using a bigger tug, meaning your hands are no where near the dogs mouth... right.... Isnt that like teaching a dog not to toilet in the house by never having it in the house?

K9: lol no band aid is what you use after you havent worn gloves lol... but seriously it isnt, this may be another case of "I havent tried it but it wont work because". My 6 yo does that with some foods I love how you consistantly put words in peoples mouths and claim that because someone disagrees with your methods, they are wrong or ignorant (def: not understanding) I have trained in schutzhund in case you missed that in my resume

K9: Hold on, I didnt put words in any ones mouth and I responded directly to you. Not people... These are protective gloves for gods sake, not a method? And I clearly said DONT USE THEM!

It was you who is attacking me here, because you dont agree with my methods (tools)...

K9: Some new (and old) handlers start to add avoidant steps into their tug work as they have been bitten a few times, the dog cues off this and starts aiming at the hands, this of course is a handler error but again, it does happen and wont happen when the handler starts with gloves.

A: I'm not sure where you get that part from *dog starts aiming at hands* but if you beleive that to be true..so be it....in my opinion, it simply means the handler has moved ahead too quickly or used the wrong/incorrect size reward.

K9: Ok sure I will agree with you if it helps meake things clearer, but when the handler has made a mistake, what then, you deny them gloves and make them pay until they teach better taregetting or tug presentation?

K9: I dont think anyone is saying, "wear these gloves and then let the dog bite your hands" but when you work multiple dogs as I do, dogs that are not mine, dogs that are untrained and puppies, bites will happen until the dog is taught to target better, in the interim, gloves.

But you ARE in fact promoting the use of gloves, in fact you have people lined up to buy them if you get them in. How about instruction on how to target correctly without them?

K9: That is available too? I bet if I had addressed my first post with "come to me Aussienot and do a lesson, I will teach you how to avoid getting bit", you would have an issue with that too, because obviously the issue isnt with the gloves...

And yes I am promoting gloves, I have had many people tell me their hands are in tatters, can they wear gloves, I tested a number of different types, I found a type I like, we are making them available, so?

K9: Are we? says who? if we are then it may not be easy for them to teach their dogs to accurately target. I would also suggest that, Aussienot, Jeff Jones, Erny and Cosmolo arent average owners teaching their pets tug games....

A: Yes we are...although some as mentioned may be above average pet owners, these threads are read by MANY who are first time dog owners, moreso than those of us that have been around the block a time or two....first time pet owners NEED help to teach. Slapping a set of gloves on doesn't teach.

K9: Firstly, why didnt you then post a reply with a teaching method for those who say they are getting bit? If your that concerned, why not help rather than critisize?

Second I guess you must be against training wheels on kids bikes too?

Thirdly, NOT wearing gloves sometimes teaches people not to play tug...

Finally, the people I mentioned are Pro Trainers, not people who "may be above avaergae pet owners" as you said...

K9: OMG go back to the house and get them? gee.... you could also still just work without them, just as you do now...

A: always the jokester....assuming we always train at home? Some of us do get out and for me, training happens all the time, not just in the back yard....

K9: you seriously cant be bagging out a piece of equipment because one day you might forget to take it with you... come on

A: yes I work with out them but that is not the point of the statement...you imply that gloves should be mandatory and that without them, danger would happen...

K9: Perhaps you better read what I DID write, never said mandatory, never said must wear, never said danger either... I just mentioned we had some on test and will be getting them. They wont stop an aggressive attack, they simply stop skin from coming off in accidental bites.

A: it's like those that choose to train ONLY using food rewards, wonder what happens when their pockets run dry?

K9: They plan better next time?

Why am I suddenly responsible for every training reinforcer or trainer that has limits or errors? I simply mentioned a pair of gloves...

K9: Protective clothes in any type of activity are smart, if I was using a grinder I could say "I would rather learn how to hold the grinder so it doesnt shoot crap in my eye" or just wear the glasses, all the arguments of "what happens if I leave my glasses at home" still are the same arent they? Put the gloves in your gear bag with your tugs.

I have played tug with dogs for 20 years plus, I can train a dog not to touch my hands, yes it isnt hard, once trained the dog will not target my hands, but he can still make a mistake or so can I.

There are dogs that have learned to target the hands of the handler because it makes (or has made) the handler let go or react, these dogs need to be trained the rule that "you touch my hands the game ends". To teach them this, they have to touch your hands so that you may mark the event that you dont want to see.

K9: No reply to any of this I see...

K9: Our industry needs to come out of the dark ages and take care of handlers and dogs, gloves do both.

A: I've never felt training dogs is an industry,

K9: Industry - Group of productive organizations that produce or supply goods, services, or sources of income.

The professional trainers in this thread would fall into that description I would say. If you would have preferred I had said "our profession needs to ...." that would be the same thing.

A: nor do I feel that I am in the dark ages...I've used tried and true methods, without force or intimidation for years.....and I take the blame when my dogs make a mistake, because I trained them. If that is dark ages training....so be it...I'll be happy to stay in a cave and train this way, but I know that I won't need gloves for tugging and I won't lose any blood either.

K9: And for the rest of us, I guess we will have to resort to gloves lol

First you dont think of dog training as an industry, but when I say " our industry needs to come out of the dark ages" you take that as an insult? Thought it wasnt an industry and you werent in it?

K9: But Angelsun, no one is asking you to wear any...

A: No, but your posts imply that anyone that does anything contrary to your methods, is archaic or just plain irresponsible *see above comment re: dark ages*

K9: People read into things way too much, how about read the posts I am writing when I write them, bringing past personal feelings into threads now really isnt helpful.

You keep saying "we", "anyone" and "people". It is very clear I am only addressing you in this thread where I have quoted you. Also since I mentioned gloves, no one but you has disagreed here?

I am not sure what problem you have with me, I am sure it isnt the gloves though , perhaps as I said, offer to train everyone how to use tugs your way and then there will be no need for gloves... Helping is always better than critisism yeah?

I really have no wish to argue on this with you (I dont even know you?) so lets just agree to disagree hey?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: For anyone else, I had problems with loose fitting gloves, the glove could become a tug, so the ones I liked best are very tight fitting gloves with protection in the right places (for me at least).

They are nice and Flexible and last well, they have other good uses, they are not a dog training specific glove (yet) so they are just good to have around.

Ideally your dog should be taught to respect your skin, as Angelsun said, that is 100% correct, but there are some circumstances in which I have found gloves helpful, I wear them now myself (when I dont forget them )...

Those circumstances are (but not limited to) : -

Your working with a pup (they have needles for teeth), your developing drive and dont want to compromise that by any negativity yet and you would like to protect your hands. Gloves

Your a trainer working with a clients dog/s and the dog hasnt been taught to respect your skin, whilst your getting the message accross, gloves will help.

You can struggle a bit with tug presentation because either, you have a dog that moves at lightning speed or your just a little slow or un coordinated (so what right?) Gloves..

You are faced with a dog that tries to grab at the wrong part of the tug because it has learned that the handles (perhaps) give the dog better grip or leverage. You then cover this section of the tug and dog is still trying to grip it which = your hands. Gloves.

You have a rank dog that has learned to win the tug by biting your hands, gloves.

You dont know the dog your going to work, gloves (precaution).

Gloves should not be to replace the ability or the desire to get the ability to handle tugs properly, teach dogs to target the right area of the tug, or take less care. They are protective equipment and are to take care of your hands...

I even use them for high food drive dogs too (shoot me )

Edited August 5, 2010 by K9Pro

[JulesP]

If I was teaching a heap of dogs to tug I would want gloves on. Just seems to be common sense to me.

[Erny]

They are nice and Flexible and last well, they have other good uses ...

Hey!! Gardening, then a quick bout of training in drive with tug, then back to gardening .... without even a pause!!! ;)

[Quickasyoucan]

K9: You can struggle a bit with tug presentation because either, you have a dog that moves at lightning speed or your just a little slow or un coordinated (so what right?) Gloves..

Guilty as charged officer (the bolded bit) and unfortunately some of us are born "coordinationally challenged" and it's not something that is easy to change. Doesn't mean I don't like to play tug with my dog though.

Hell I am never going to be an expert, my dog doesn't target my hands, but he is faster than me, and occassionally i get a nip, does that mean I should never be playing tug because I am not good enough and am unlikely to ever be??? Seems kind of elitist.

I think the gloves are a good idea, do they come in red

And Erny I like the gardening idea, have we tested them for durability against spider bites though

Edited August 5, 2010 by Quickasyoucan

[gsdog2]

K9: You can struggle a bit with tug presentation because either, you have a dog that moves at lightning speed or your just a little slow or un coordinated (so what right?) Gloves..

Guilty as charged officer (the bolded bit) and unfortunately some of us are born "coordinationally challenged" and it's not something that is easy to change. Doesn't mean I don't like to play tug with my dog though.

Hell I am never going to be an expert, my dog doesn't target my hands, but he is faster than me, and occassionally i get a nip, does that mean I should never be playing tug because I am not good enough and am unlikely to ever be??? Seems kind of elitist.

X 2

[Red Fox]

K9: You can struggle a bit with tug presentation because either, you have a dog that moves at lightning speed or your just a little slow or un coordinated (so what right?) Gloves..

Guilty as charged officer (the bolded bit) and unfortunately some of us are born "coordinationally challenged" and it's not something that is easy to change. Doesn't mean I don't like to play tug with my dog though.

Hell I am never going to be an expert, my dog doesn't target my hands, but he is faster than me, and occassionally i get a nip, does that mean I should never be playing tug because I am not good enough and am unlikely to ever be??? Seems kind of elitist.

X 2

x3 I'm another one who will be lining up for a pair.

Having been nipped a few times for no other reason then that I lack co-ordination I've developed some pretty bad habits when delivering the reward to my dog, which doesn't help either of us.

Gloves wont fix my co-ordination problem but what they might do is help me to break my bad habits quicker and get back on track.

...and if they dont? Well at least they'll keep my hands warm during a morning training session!

[corvus]

They're just gloves. Wear 'em or don't. Who cares? It's your hands. I wouldn't hesitate to use protection wherever it seemed warranted. If you don't think it's warranted, then don't use protection.