Accidental Bite?

[ness]

Touch wood I seem to have made it through the accidental bite stage and my hands are mostly intacted most of the time. That is unless I decide to run a training session when I am slightly tired and then its my fault more so then the dogs. .

[Sydoo]

Erny, have you looked at motorcycle gloves? OH's road gloves have a lot of knuckle protection which inhibits movement a bit but I think his motocross ones would be flexible enough. Relatively soft palm with thicker protection on fingers/back of hand. Never seen fingerless ones but I guess you could cut them.

[Erny]

Sydoo .... thanks for the thought. I haven't specifically gone out of my way to look at motorcycle gloves. I guess my assumption is that they would be more bulky than what I'd prefer. I 'feel' a lot through the lead and I don't want to lose that sensitivity. I also don't want to lose sensitivity so much so that I am not likely to notice the accidental dog tooth during tug, as it is part of training to teach the dog to mind your hands. Mainly what I want is a light protection that will stop my skin from tearing/getting damaged from knocks yet tough enough to withstand the accidental bites.

I'll have a look at the motor cycle gloves via google, however I am dubious as to whether they would be suitable due to movement restriction and bulkiness. I'm also interested in knowing from Steve what design he has in mind for the ones he's planning to have available.

ETA: You're right - the Motorcross ones don't appear that they'd be as bulky. In my travels I'll pop into a motorcycle gear shop when I pass one, to see them 'in the flesh'. Horse riding gloves (the soft leather every-day ones) were also ones that I had thought of getting as well. I have some ..... but somehow the pair have become separated and one is missing. They too, I think, would be good and I had thought about cutting off the fingers. Just never got around to it.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Erny

[Sydoo]

OH said the softish gloves I'm thinking of are the ones he wears riding in the bush (not proper racing motocross)- they are just to stop branches etc from shredding your knuckles and the back of your hands. Just a thought anyway.

I hope it's a one-off accident, Aussienot. We had a kelpie x when I was a kid that would bite your hand to get the tug - a pattern emerged pretty quickly and he would bite well above the tug itself so we knew it wasn't accidental. He was trained out of it eventually.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I have tried out a heap of different style gloves and ended up going for high flexibility and finger protection, fingers seem to cop it worst. I have settled on one with a rubber piece added to each finger and knuckle, it is about as much as protecting my hands as dogs and pups teeth.

They also have a piece of kevlar added in the webbing between the thumb and index finger, this is where I cop a lot of nips on inexperienced dogs on a tug toy.

[Erny]

Steve - apart from the protective rubber, what are the gloves made of?

[Steve K9Pro]

Leather Jude, they are very comfortable too!

[Jeff Jones]

They also have a piece of kevlar added in the webbing between the thumb and index finger, this is where I cop a lot of nips on inexperienced dogs on a tug toy.

After my encounter with a Dutch Shepherd biting me on the index finger the other day, I think I will have to get a pair.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Jeff Jones

[Steve K9Pro]

When I was younger and tougher (ok dumber) I wouldn't have worn gloves, my hands show a hundred little scars from puppies and young dogs, this cold weather is a good reminder of what it feels like lol. I missplaced my hands heaps of times to test various gloves and they make a real good difference as they protect your hands and help you gripthe tug better.

[Erny]

Leather Jude, they are very comfortable too!

I presume the leather is soft hide.

Steve - I wouldn't mind purchasing a pair to try out when you have them available. Let me know when you have them in . I just copped another tooth knock today, from one of the dogs I have been working with. I literally have thin skin and just a small knock that I don't even notice ends up a bleed under the skin. My poor hands have copped a beating over the while - they work hard, so they deserve some TLC and protection :D. So long as they don't restrict bending in the fingers.

Cheers

Judi

Edited August 2, 2010 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

I'd be interested in getting some too.

[Steve K9Pro]

No worries easy done guys. I have pretty much testing these alone as my testers don't have high prey dogs, so would love your feedback.

[corvus]

When I was dealing with wild gliders on a regular basis, which are small and delicate and squirmy but have teeth designed to chisel holes in eucalypts and are insanely keen to use them in defence, I had an expensive pair of riggers gloves with articulated knuckles. They came in a number of sizes and a small fit my hands quite snugly. They gave an excellent balance between feel and protection. They were still a bit clumsy for bats, I found, but perfect for rats, gliders and possums. I got nailed by all of them and the gloves protected well. You would certainly feel a dog bite through them, but it would be unlikely to draw any blood at least. And you'd need a hard bite to get bruised through them, I think. You can get them from Bunnings. They cost about $50.

Tragically, I lost one of my riggers gloves somewhere on the south coast.

[Steve K9Pro]

They sound very similar Corvus, could be the same, ours are cheaper than that though but I think they retail up there.

[angelsun]

Leather Jude, they are very comfortable too!

And what about when you don't have these handy? Would it not make more sense to teach the dog to respect fingers and hands and not make the mistake? How about teaching the instigator of the tug or reward to not make the mistake of missing the target/handling the tug incorrectly etc which results in a nip?

Putting protective clothing on (when not training sports like schutzhund), is a bandaid. If you as a handler are not uncomfortable, you will expect to see more nips/pinches which is in fact not creating a good behaviour for the dog. The dog MUST learn to respect hands and body parts, regardless of how high of a reward is offered. This goes along as well for those show dogs that snap at bait etc....it's not that hard to teach them how to respect fingers and stop snapping, just as it's not hard to teach dogs to not miss the toy reward. We are talking about the average owner, rewarding their dog with a tug or play remember!

Important to remember that most handlers are not using the appropriate sized toy for the size of dog they are rewarding. That's HANDLER error and not the dogs.

I would much rather teach the dog to respect my skin, than worry about whether I had my leather protective gloves on, or worse, have to say to the dog "sorry, I can't play with you, I forgot my gloves in the house."

Edited August 2, 2010 by angelsun

[Steve K9Pro]

And what about when you don't have these handy?

K9: what happens if you dont have the tug handy? do you just feed your arm to the dog?

Would it not make more sense to teach the dog to respect fingers and hands and not make the mistake?

K9: Yes absolutely, you may have missed my earlier post in this thread that identified why bites can happen, but the gloves are to use WHILST the dog is learning to target.

How about teaching the instigator of the tug or reward to not make the mistake of missing the target/handling the tug incorrectly etc which results in a nip?

K9: Mistakes happen, and when they do, protective clothing can be helpful and again, whilst handlers are learning to use a tug, these can be handy.

Putting protective clothing on (when not training sports like schutzhund), is a bandaid.

K9: lol no band aid is what you use after you havent worn gloves lol... but seriously it isnt, this may be another case of "I havent tried it but it wont work because". My 6 yo does that with some foods

Some new (and old) handlers start to add avoidant steps into their tug work as they have been bitten a few times, the dog cues off this and starts aiming at the hands, this of course is a handler error but again, it does happen and wont happen when the handler starts with gloves.

If you as a handler are not comfortable, you will expect to see more nips/pinches which is in fact not creating a good behaviour for the dog.

K9: Correct, and some people are not comfortable because they are getting bitten during the learning phase, this leads to more poor tug handling. The gloves often produce a more relaxed handler.

The dog MUST learn to respect hands and body parts, regardless of how high of a reward is offered.

K9: I dont think anyone is saying, "wear these gloves and then let the dog bite your hands" but when you work multiple dogs as I do, dogs that are not mine, dogs that are untrained and puppies, bites will happen until the dog is taught to target better, in the interim, gloves.

This goes along as well for those show dogs that snap at bait etc....it's not that hard to teach them how to respect fingers and stop snapping, just as it's not hard to teach dogs to not miss the toy reward. We are talking about the average owner, rewarding their dog with a tug or play remember!

K9: Are we? says who? if we are then it may not be easy for them to teach their dogs to accurately target. I would also suggest that, Aussienot, Jeff Jones, Erny and Cosmolo arent average owners teaching their pets tug games....

Important to remember that most handlers are not using the appropriate sized toy for the size of dog they are rewarding. That's HANDLER error and not the dogs.

K9: true, you will see in my post number 10 I have mentioned all of these things.

I would much rather teach the dog to respect my skin, than worry about whether I had my leather protective gloves on,

K9: maybe the dog will respect your skin better when you do?

or worse, have to say to the dog "sorry, I can't play with you, I forgot my gloves in the house."

K9: OMG go back to the house and get them? gee.... you could also still just work without them, just as you do now...

Protective clothes in any type of activity are smart, if I was using a grinder I could say "I would rather learn how to hold the grinder so it doesnt shoot crap in my eye" or just wear the glasses, all the arguments of "what happens if I leave my glasses at home" still are the same arent they? Put teh gloves in your gear bag with your tugs.

I have played tug with dogs for 20 years plus, I can train a dog not to touch my hands, yes it isnt hard, once trained the dog will not target my hands, but he can still make a mistake or so can I.

There are dogs that have learned to target the hands of the handler because it makes (or has made) the handler let go or react, these dogs need to be trained the rule that "you touch my hands the game ends". To teach them this, they have to touch your hands so that you may mark the event that you dont want to see.

Our industry needs to come out of the dark ages and take care of handlers and dogs, gloves do both.

But Angelsun, no one is asking you to wear any...

I have tested a load of gloves from a few different industries, the tight fitting, highly protective non restricting ones that have beefed up protection in the high risk zones of the hand, work realy well! Try some gloves, it wont hurt!

Edited August 2, 2010 by K9Pro

[Cosmolo]

What K9 Pro said. Its not either or- of course i don't want dogs to bite my hands- gloves or not. But in this freezing cold weather, an accidental graze from a tooth (and shock horror, it happened with one of my own dogs last week) hurts like hell.

[Erny]

Anglesun - you're talking as though, with gloves on, we won't feel the accidental tooth/bite and will do nothing about it. Why do you think that?

Do you think that we should also strip bear for a dog who tends to mouth, just so we can feel its teeth better than we might when we have clothes on?

LOL .... that'd be a sight !!!

If the gloves aren't handy and we need to work with the dog we'll probably do what we do now and work with the dog without gloves on, and take the accidental knocks on our hands and let our skin bruise up, break, bleed. But it would be nice to have them so we don't have to bear the scars and the pain in the interim of the dog learning to target better.

I've worked with gloves on before - particularly while I was trying to give my hands a chance to heal up before copping more accidental marks. Gloves don't stop the feel but they stop/reduce the damage. Why are you against sensible protection?

Oh, and who said that wearing gloves means we won't be teaching the dogs to respect our skin?

Edited August 2, 2010 by Erny

[corvus]

Not that anyone wants or needs my input, but I always found it scary having an animal chomp on me even if I had gloves on. You can feel the pressure, which is uncomfortable, and there's always the fear that it's going to start hurting any moment, which it would if the animal was big enough. I always treated them as a backup rather than something to make my hands invincible. I'd handle to avoid being bitten and the gloves were there so I wouldn't flinch, drop the animal, or get injured if I made a mistake. Confident handling is good for any animal, I think.

Edited August 3, 2010 by corvus

[Steve K9Pro]

Not that anyone wants or needs my input, but I always found it scary having an animal chomp on me even if I had gloves on. You can feel the pressure, which is uncomfortable, and there's always the fear that it's going to start hurting any moment, which it would if the animal was big enough. I always treated them as a backup rather than something to make my hands invincible. I'd handle to avoid being bitten and the gloves were there so I wouldn't flinch, drop the animal, or get injured if I made a mistake. Confident handling is good for any animal, I think.

K9: All input and experience is valuable in some way brings up a good point that the style of gloves I am talking about may be of some help in dealing with aggressive dogs, but thats not the reason I chose the ones I did, these are simply for tug work, food work where you may get a graze or nip.

A large dog that aggressively tries to bite will often break a finger, this still may happen with these gloves.

Even the larger thicker gloves I tried first wouldnt be adequate protection for that.