Touchy Subject But Need Advice Or Help.

[Kavik]

I would look into herding guy or Vickie (if she wants to help)

They have experience with working dogs (herding guy has Kelpies, Vickie has Border Collies and experience with Kelpies) and will be able to help determine whether the dog can be rehabilitated.

[darlingdog]

So can they touch it at all?

This is a very sad situation :p

The poor pup obviously has not had a good start to what will probably be a very short life

I don't believe these sort or problems can be diagnosed or solved over the internet.

No one here has seen the pups actual behaviour and although PTS may well be the best option, wouldn't it be best to get the opinion of a professional who can see the pup in person and see how it interacts etc

I believe they should get a behaviourist or experienced trainer to assess the pup and make a decision based on this.

It is only fair to the pup to at least give it one last chance.

with absolute respect and not trying to be rude (things can come across as such on a forum-and i really don't want to be misunderstood ), i think that is pretty naive aussielover. resuce orgs will not take on a HA dog, but more importantly by keeping this dog with a child you can be not only endangering the child physically but also mentally scarring it for life. i live with a phobia and wouldn't wish it on anyone. it doesn't take much to give children serious fears and phobias and the longer this pup lives with a child the more likely it is that some damage will be done.

"it is only fair" to get this poor pup, who is probably scared out of its mind and freaking out, humanely euth'ed. after all, professionals on this forum don't need to know a whole lot more about the pup that the behaviour described-if they were trying to rehab it, of course they would need mounds more info, but to make an assesment on the best option for the dog and the family? that one is easy, take it to the vet and put it down. it is in the best interests of the dog, the parents and the child.

i feel really sorry for the people who took this dog on, yes they were silly, but someone palmed off a sad situation onto them and now they have to do the hard thing.

jeeze, people can really suck sometimes, can't they?

I know you're not trying to be rude

But my point is, we are making recommendations to PTS based on second hand information, obviously i'm not saying the OP is lying but the owner could certainly be exaggerating or even misinterpreting the situations. Very few here are qualified behaviourists and I doubt that a qualified behaviourist or great dog trainer would assess such a situation based on online, second hand info.

Again, not trying to be rude, but I think you're quite wrong about professionals not needing to know more than what has been said here on the forum.

In my opinion the responsible thing to do was get the dog assessed ASAP.

I'm not saying its wrong to PTS.

Also, in light of the new info regarding the lump on the head- a trip to the vet is required!

Howver, I also accept the fact the the decision is up to the owner, I am disappointed to hear they will not get the puppy professionally assessed. Hopefully the person they manage to pass it on to will be able to help the poor thing more

Yes I agree with your suggestion to first get the pup professionally assessed before jumping on the PTS solution. In my opinion someone who was naive enough to be conned like this in the first place is not the most reliable judge of a pup's character, just saying...........

[poodlefan]

Danielle:

I can imagine this must be hard for her, she has never dealt with a dog like this before as most of us havent. Really, who has had an agressive puppy before? Its so easy to say what we would do, but we arent in her shoes now are we?

I think a lot of folk have difficulty believing a young pup CAN be truly aggressive. So disbelief and guilt go into the mix. Such pups are out there sadly.

[aussielover]

erm wasn't it only recently that people were bagging a person with a 4 month old labrador puppy for not being dedicated enough with their puppy that they considered to be aggressive?

(well maybe not recently, but I definitely remember reading aboutthis issue in a post here)

The person thought it may be genetic or something and said if they couldn't correct the probs without going to a professional they would get rid of it or send it back to the breeder. I recall many people saying it was impossible for a 4 month old pup to show true aggression. I don't think anyone suggested being PTS.

The OP also hasn't said anything about whether the dog has actually drawn blood or caused actual injury when it has "bitten", perhaps the OP could clarify that?

I don't know, i've been following this thread for a while and it is quite sad. Obviously not ideal for all involved in the situation.

Could a working dog rescue or something come and assess it or something?

Something needs to be done ASAP for the child's sake, unfortunately this may be to the detriment of the pup

No offence to the OP but they don't exactly sound responsible (with dogs) and unless a miracle occurs I am thinking the green dream is looking more and more likely.

[Ravyk]

*sticks flame suit on*

Well since the person wants to now give the dog away, couldn't someone from DOL nearby to them take the dog and take it to the vet to be assessed and possibly PTS? If I was in the area I would but I am interstate. I think it would be a VERY irresponsible thing for this dog who appears to be HA to be given away for someone else to 'deal with'.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

the issue is the 4 year old child. i for one would not want to be suggesting this puppy be allowed to stay in the house with this child as the risks are far too high.

the childs safety comes first and the new owners do not have the luxury of time to fix the problems due the the presence of the child and a HA dog/puppy in the same vicinity.

its a recipe for disaster

Edited July 28, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Danielle]

I think a lot of folk have difficulty believing a young pup CAN be truly aggressive. So disbelief and guilt go into the mix. Such pups are out there sadly.

Yeah its scarey hey. I never believed that a pup could be HA until I worked with one when i was in rescue. It weirded me out as it was such a strange sight to see this little pupper baring its tiny teeth and snapping. I think they are all different, they can have different personalities from birth. If a dog has an agressive nature at birth there is nothing you can do about it.

I have a neutered male toy poodle that seems a little different from most and is very posessive. But this is just him. He is fully obedience trained, has ample stimulation, copious amounts of excercise, a great diet, plenty of attention and is disciplined when warranted, but he is still very posessive of me and my lap. Nothing wrong with it though, we live with it and work with it. Its him and i love him regardless of his little faults. He is my special little guy and i wouldnt change him for the world.

I work with dogs on a daily basis (groomer) and I would call myself very dog savvy, but even i might even have trouble with this Kelpie. Its a shame, i feel sorry for this poor pup.

[corvus]

I can imagine this must be hard for her, she has never dealt with a dog like this before as most of us havent. Really, who has had an agressive puppy before?

My family has. Some people will tell you there are no bad dogs, only bad owners. I beg to differ. Some dogs are just not suited to life with humans and this little guy was one of them. He was brought home at 8 weeks, though, so he had that early socialisation at least. It probably made a difference so that for a little while at least he was manageable, but it only got worse as he matured.

[Danielle]

I can imagine this must be hard for her, she has never dealt with a dog like this before as most of us havent. Really, who has had an agressive puppy before?

My family has. Some people will tell you there are no bad dogs, only bad owners. I beg to differ. Some dogs are just not suited to life with humans and this little guy was one of them. He was brought home at 8 weeks, though, so he had that early socialisation at least. It probably made a difference so that for a little while at least he was manageable, but it only got worse as he matured.

Sorry to hear that Corvus. It mustve been awful. Do you mind if i ask what happened? How did you deal with him and was he HA or DA?

[Vickie]

A working line dog bought into a home isn't really a good idea. The working lines are bred to work, and they can go nutty kept in a backyard [i know because an idiot 'mate' of OH's has a working line BC in his backyard, digging craters].

I agree with the people saying PTS is the kindest option.

I think can is the operative word here. There are plenty of us with working line dogs who have no behavioural issues with them whatsoever.

Just reading all of this makes me wonder...we regularly see dogs in the pound showing the same basic issues described in this thread. Some are OK, some are not. None get this kind of attention. Hmmm, maybe we should start posting about them in the General section of DOL, rather than the rescue section...

Sheep dogs that are "no good" are usually declared "no good" because they've attacked the sheep. So it may be that this dog is just wired all wrong to start with.

or like MANY, MANY sheep dogs they need longer than 4-5 months to show what they can do!

I sounded terse KTB. I wanted to explain why I hold that view. I find it ironic that the sorts of animal welfare groups who campaign against animals in zoos will propose exactly the same (or worse) conditions for dogs who cannot be safely homed. There are worse fates than a grean dream and spending your days in a shelter run has to be one of them.

Sadly, this is what "rescue" is becoming also. But that's a whole new topic.

AINT THAT THE TRUTH

Edited July 28, 2010 by Vickie

[Loving my Oldies]

Hope you are getting better that must have been a monumental decision. Awful awful thing to go through.xxxxxx

Thanks Monah. It still haunts me, particularly if I am trawling through photographs and see her looking as though she is just a normal, happy, much loved little dogs

Well since the person wants to now give the dog away, couldn't someone from DOL nearby to them take the dog and take it to the vet to be assessed and possibly PTS? If I was in the area I would but I am interstate. I think it would be a VERY irresponsible thing for this dog who appears to be HA to be given away for someone else to 'deal with'.

Yes, I was hoping someone could step up to the plate for an assessment and it looks like Herding Dogs has

My family has. Some people will tell you there are no bad dogs, only bad owners. I beg to differ. Some dogs are just not suited to life with humans and this little guy was one of them. He was brought home at 8 weeks, though, so he had that early socialisation at least. It probably made a difference so that for a little while at least he was manageable, but it only got worse as he matured.

I agree. Some people are born bad and probably in every species capable of interaction, some are born bad as well.

[Parkeyre]

the issue is the 4 year old child. i for one would not want to be suggesting this puppy be allowed to stay in the house with this child as the risks are far too high.

the childs safety comes first and the new owners do not have the luxury of time to fix the problems due the the presence of the child and a HA dog/puppy in the same vicinity.

its a recipe for disaster

+1.

[Ravyk]

A working line dog bought into a home isn't really a good idea. The working lines are bred to work, and they can go nutty kept in a backyard [i know because an idiot 'mate' of OH's has a working line BC in his backyard, digging craters].

I agree with the people saying PTS is the kindest option.

I think can is the operative word here. There are plenty of us with working line dogs who have no behavioural issues with them whatsoever.

Yes my point exactly. I am sure your working line dogs are properly socialised and stimulated, hence no issues... unlike my OH's 'mates'' -she's been socialised, just isn't stimulated enough, hence the nuttiness and cratered yard.

[Vickie]

I can imagine this must be hard for her, she has never dealt with a dog like this before as most of us havent. Really, who has had an agressive puppy before?

My now 13 1/2 YO was aggressive at 5 months, both HA & DA. He was basically scared of the world & willing to defend himself. Vet wanted to either PTS or medicate. I went the training option & was lucky...it worked. But it was a lot of bloody hard work!

Not sure what the outcome will be here. As PF said, there are things worse than the green dream. The pup may be fine or it may not. The help (if they get it) may be good or it may not. People in rescue see dogs (and pups) like this regularly. The resources are rarely there to even assess them professionally.

Poor people, poor pup

[OSoSwift]

I think the kindest thing for the puppy and the safest for the people and child is for the dog to be euthed.

If your friend cannot step up, take responsibilty and do it then offer to take the dog yourself.

I have done it before, cried many tears but at least I knew the dog would not suffer at the hands of someone wanting a nasty dog or a yard guard dog.

I imagine her ears are already ringing from the serve you have given her, so you probably won't need to tell her again. Hopefully she has learnt a very valuable lesson

[Loving my Oldies]

My now 13 1/2 YO was aggressive at 5 months, both HA & DA. He was basically scared of the world & willing to defend himself. Vet wanted to either PTS or medicate. I went the training option & was lucky...it worked. But it was a lot of bloody hard work!

Not sure what the outcome will be here. As PF said, there are things worse than the green dream. The pup may be fine or it may not. The help (if they get it) may be good or it may not. People in rescue see dogs (and pups) like this regularly. The resources are rarely there to even assess them professionally.

Poor people, poor pup

Too true.

I think too, that a lot depends of the mind set and personality of the person owning the dog. Some people go to pieces if a dog so much as growls and others will go to the ends of the earth to try to find a solution and rehabilitate the dog.

Any situation needs to be looked at in its entirety.

However, thanks to Danielle's honesty and care in posting, it would appear that the options are starting to appear.

[Janba]

A working line dog bought into a home isn't really a good idea. The working lines are bred to work, and they can go nutty kept in a backyard [i know because an idiot 'mate' of OH's has a working line BC in his backyard, digging craters].

I agree with the people saying PTS is the kindest option.

I think can is the operative word here. There are plenty of us with working line dogs who have no behavioural issues with them whatsoever.

Yes my point exactly. I am sure your working line dogs are properly socialised and stimulated, hence no issues... unlike my OH's 'mates'' -she's been socialised, just isn't stimulated enough, hence the nuttiness and cratered yard.

That isn't neccessarily a "working line" problem but can be very much a problem with a lot of ANKC breeds who are put in that situation. The worst digger I have ever had is Moss who is showbred and he tried very hard to make it to China whan he was younger.

OP I can't really add any more to the suggestions already made in this thread.

[casowner]

The human race has a lot to be ashamed of, we are responsible for bringing animals (and children) into this world and we let them down time and time again. For all of the good things we think we do you just have to turn on the tele, open a newspaper or look on the internet to realise that we are the cause of a lot of unnecessary pain. Danielle, I hope your friends do the right thing by the pup, their child, themselves and society, it is a hard decision to make and I wish them well

[Ravyk]

I don't really want to post this, but I have a feeling she is listed on Gumtree.

[Danielle]

I don't really want to post this, but I have a feeling she is listed on Gumtree.

Yes, I was just alerted to it. And it is indeed her.

I cannot believe it. Ive worked my butt off all day trying to help her with this dog and now she is advertising it as a giveaway. Ive told her about bybers, puppy millers and ive told her that this dog should NOT be rehomed to a family, i told her it needs to be spayed, taken to the vet, etc, but she goes behind my back and advertises the dog. Im so sick of trying to educate people who dont want to be educated! I bloody give up!