RallyValley Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Before anyone acusses me of being dramatic or a quiter I want to post a pic of Toby's leg after his cast came off at just under 6 months old where you can see the extent of the muscle wastage: Toby was cleared to do "anything he wants" by the vets after his final x-ray at 9 months old and again just before 12 months I took him to another vet and got an opinion on his soundness for agility who said it would be fine. I did however make the desicion that the A frame might be too much strain on the leg so he has only been training in jumpers. When we train it is for 5 mins at the absoulte max and never in a situation where he can't take off if he is sick of it. This winter we have noticed after he has been in one position for a long time he is a bit proppy on the leg, the vets say this is normal. He has started to refuse jumps and I believe that although this could be a training issue it probably isn't and he is probably trying to let me know he is hurting. I have him booked into a bowen therapapist but wanted to know if anyone else had any other avenues to try out. I just wanted to pick the DOLers brains for some ideas I might not have thought of. However I think I should go with my gut feeling and retire him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 (edited) I just wanted to pick the DOLers brains for some ideas I might not have thought of. However I think I should go with my gut feeling and retire him. Wait for the therapist's opinion, but I'd say you're right. A chiropractor would be a good person to visit also. Agility is a front end sport and he sustained a serious front leg injury. If he's starting to refuse jumps something's not right. It will probably be bone/tendon issues, rather than muscle that are causing the problem IMO. My guess would be arthritis either in the leg, higher up in the shoulder or the spine. If he's not on joint support already, I'd be starting him but sounds like it's time, to retire if he's no longer enjoying himself. Edited July 28, 2010 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 I just wanted to pick the DOLers brains for some ideas I might not have thought of. However I think I should go with my gut feeling and retire him. Wait for the therapist's opinion, but I'd say you're right. Agility is a front end sport. If he's starting to refuse jumps something's not right. It will probably be bone/tendon issues, rather than muscle that are causing the problem IMO. If he's not on joint support already, I'd be starting him but sounds like it's time, to retire if he's no longer enjoying himself. He already gets joint guard, fish oil and I am debating cartrophen injections. Basically he gets the same treatment as my 14 yeard old arthritic dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Do it before fellow agiliteers cringe when they see him unsound but still trying to please you.. I've seen a few sad cases like that. Continuation on an unsound limb is only going to compound his health issues as he ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Can I ask a couple of questions - how old is Toby now ? Where exactly was the fracture (assuming fracture?) and how close to the carpal joint? My older kelpie broke his right front leg at 2 years of age - your photo brings back a lot of memories ! There were complications in that it didn't heal as quickly as vet expected, plus he was plated,wired and screwed within an inch of his life. After 3 lots of major surgery we had 12 months off agility training in total and then another 3 months off trialling while I brought him back very slowly, despite being given the all clear from the vet that he was fine. A couple of years back he went through a period where he occasionally slowed down and refused jumps - I tried vet plus 3 different muscle therapists (all of who said there was nothing wrong )before I hit on a brilliant therapist who watched him walk for all of about 15 seconds and went straight to the spot. There was an area in his back that was totally jammed up that she believed would have been a throw back to the original accident that no one had ever picked before - she even described the type of accident that would have needed to occur to have created this and was spot on ! My advice (if he is still a young dog) would be to temporarily retire him and keep trying until you can get an answer. Depending on how long ago he had the accident and what the accident actually was, there may be another area that is causing him a problem like there was with mine. We did a lot of swimming with ours which also helped - do you have access to an underwater treadmill anywhere ? Other things that were good were herbal remedies from Robert McDowell (google), videoing him to have a look at his jumping take off/landing to see if there was anything I could pinpoint (therapist also did a house visit and watched him jump ) plus I changed my contacts from stopped to running as I didn't like the position he was hitting with his wrist, especially on the A Frame. Despite having access to an A Frame at home, this is also one piece of equipment that I very rarely train with him - and when I do it is no more than 2 or 3 repetitions at a time. Even though running contact is not 100% reliable I would prefer to miss one every now and then. I consider myself lucky to have had 4 years trialling since his accident- even though they have been very interrupted due to me being a sook and pulling him out at the slightest sign of anything - but I wouldn't risk his health for anything just for an agility trial. I hope you find some answers and understand totally how hard it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 I retired my border collie from obedience after a leg break as I didn't want her jumping in that. It does sound like Toby is trying to tell you something by refusing. I pulled another border collie out of agility as I felt that she was struggling to jump 500. She was on the border between 400 & 500. People thought I was being a sook but I could see she wasn't happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 Toby is just over 2 years now. The break was a clean break through the radius and ulna about an inch and a half below the elbow (radius/ulna - humerus joint) so very far from the carpal joint. It was caused by a horse stepping on the leg. Because Toby was so young and still growing they were very hesitant to put metal pins/plates incase they limited growth, because of this that leg is turned in but the same length as the leg that did not break. If you look at my sig you can see the affected leg is still not as bulky as the undamaged leg. The accident was almost 2 years ago. I don't know if there are any underwater treadmills in Perth, I will have to find out and I couldn't find any 2 years ago. I do have some clips on youtube of him doing agility but none that are really close up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 Just realised those pics are not actually all that clear, these might help: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 i know one person who has a dog who has funny (twisted) front paws/legs. She does agility training because she and the dog clearly love it but she doesn't compete because there is no exception on the height requirement for a dog that is slightly crippled. I also know how long it took me to get my leg working properly after busting an ACL and I did eventually get the help of a rehab specialist who works with professional football teams. It takes a lot of careful work to rebuild the muscles and tendon strength. Tendons take much longer to rebuild than muscle, and I imagine bone is longer still. If you don't rebuild the strength, you get all sorts of compensating injuries from using the rest of your body incorrectly. Hip pain and pain in the good leg where things that got me. I imagine a dog would do similar things, travelling on three legs. So even if the dog is retired from agility, it would still be worthwhile getting it doing rehab work to build strength back. Walking in water is better than swimming. And not very long is required. Well it depends a bit on how fast you want results but I think I used to spend an hour in the pool, with about 30 mins of walking and running exercises, but a fair bit of that was resting and stretching between. There is a vet here in adelaide with hydrotherapy treadmill and pool, I'm sure there would be some in WA, if only to support the greyhound industry. But if you want a cheaper solution, find a beach or river with a sandy bank where you can both walk, chest deep for dog. I think I'd start with five to fifteen minute sessions with a 30 second break every two minutes. It would depend a bit on how willing the dog was. But if you can find a dog physio to write a program that would help. It's not something I've studied professionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W Sibs Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 If it was me, I would listen to my gut and retire him. For me, I know my dog best. No matter what anyone else, I know my dog. Also, if I do continue with my dog's training, I'm always going to be worried and be scared for the dog.. and never going to be fully confident to work with my dog. You can always un-retired him later down the track when he gets better. He is still a young dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 Mrs Rusty bucket the lake a 10 min walk from my house would fit the bill perfectly for wading through chest high water. He needs to go back to the vets about his allergies so I might ask for a physio referral. I had forgotten all about physios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Hi ValleyCBR Make sure it's a clean lake or do a thorough wash down after with tap water. ACT lakes have blue green algae and leeches - yum. But I used to swim in them anyway. Glad to point you at dog physio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 I can see the turn out you describe clearly from the photos. Just looking at that I would agree that he may be putting abnormal stress on another place (possibly the shoulder joint, although that is just a hunch as I am not qualified with doggy anatomy in way) Have you noticed a preference with his lead leg changes when making tight turns ? If it were me, I would certainly continue with the Bowen therapist - worth a try, but would also be getting a recommendation from the agility community in Perth as to the best muscle/massage therapist they know. Try physio as well, but I would want to explore this with more than just physio I think. You may have to consider trying more than one. For me personally I would go with one who has had Equissage training, only because they seem to be more adept at pinpointing problems in my experience, but that's my personal experience only. I would probably avoid one who works mainly on greyhounds for something that is not quite so clear cut. Again, I occasionally use a 'greyhound manipulator' for everyday type manipulation with one of my other dogs and he is great, but have found that they are often not quite as good at 'problem solving' when it's something a bit out of the ordinary. But again that's just my personal experience and there are probably exceptions. He is still a young dog so it won't hurt any to take some time off - if you find a good therapist they will also be able to give you some exercises for building up muscle tone on the foreleg, which from the photo also looks as if it might need work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mas1981 Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 Valley a lot of WA people take their dogs to Deb Nook for injuries, I think she is a acupuncturist and chiropractor? I could be wrong though. Loads of people have had lots of success taking their dogs to her, maybe ask her opinion of whether you should retire him or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted July 28, 2010 Author Share Posted July 28, 2010 I had the Bowen Therapist out. She found inflammation in his shoulder so he probably hurt himself hooning around with Lincoln or training in the wet. I am giving him a break from training for a few days (obviously) and will see how he goes. I have a follow up appointment next week and I will get a physio referral next time I am at the vets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 I would recommend Deb. She has been fantastic with my BC who has sustained low grade agility injuries with intermittent lameness as a result. He is very stressed at the vet and everything tightens up which makes manipulation difficult. He is very relaxed with Deb and the improvement is remarkable. Valley a lot of WA people take their dogs to Deb Nook for injuries, I think she is a acupuncturist and chiropractor? I could be wrong though. Loads of people have had lots of success taking their dogs to her, maybe ask her opinion of whether you should retire him or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 (edited) gremlins Edited July 28, 2010 by bedazzledx2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 I can see the turn out you describe clearly from the photos. Just looking at that I would agree that he may be putting abnormal stress on another place (possibly the shoulder joint, although that is just a hunch as I am not qualified with doggy anatomy in way) Have you noticed a preference with his lead leg changes when making tight turns ? That would be my concern as well. I'd wonder if he was stressing his carpus or elbows as he jumped, simply because the leg is angled wrong? They put a lot of force on those joints as they land. I think you've got great suggestions on this thread, but at the end of the day, if the dog still doesn't want to jump, he's probably telling you something. If none of the suggestions fix the jumping issue, then I'd retire him - not totally, since activity is good for every dog, but I'd only run him on the equipment & jump heights that he will do eagerly & with no signs of discomfort. If it were my dog, I'd also go with the cartrophen to help prevent DJD further down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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