Can You Breed A Healthy Blue Staffy?

[poodlefan]

This has been very interesting! I am tempted to forward on all this info to someone I know that breeds Blue staffies. They are registered breeders, they breed with registered dogs (they don't show their dogs) and their dogs are loved and well cared for BUT they definately breed for the money. They have not had much luck so far as in they haven't had a single litter that has arrived safely and that more than one or two pups have survived. Could this also be because of the blue gene? Also, I have noticed that their dogs are HUGE!(not so much in height but in mass and head size) Way bigger than the SBT I've seen at shows. Is this also a feature of the blue? Recently they sent one of their bitches to a stud dog and they very proudly told me that she was heaps bigger than the stud?!

Could be lots of things:

* poor whelping/puppy raising husbandry

* big headed pups causing difficulty for the bitch

* failure of the pups to thrive.

BUT if it keeps recurring, and they're STILL breeding in the same manner, its hardly in the interests of the dogs.

[Crisovar]

They have not had much luck so far as in they haven't had a single litter that has arrived safely and that more than one or two pups have survived. Could this also be because of the blue gene? Also, I have noticed that their dogs are HUGE!(not so much in height but in mass and head size) Way bigger than the SBT I've seen at shows. Is this also a feature of the blue? Recently they sent one of their bitches to a stud dog and they very proudly told me that she was heaps bigger than the stud?!

The number of Caesareans and awful whelpings in Staffords due to the byb not having a basic grasp of the dogs anatomy is quite astounding. You only have to look at the body shape of the dogs and the massive heads that many of them hold sacred to see why they cannot whelp.

[Remarkabull]

PF, I agree. I am not a breeder but I have been involved in hand raising puppies (I once hand raised a litter of 8 Bull Terrier pups from birth and all thrived). I think this particular person handles the puppies way too much (they also let others handle them), they also start bottle feeding them immediately (in addition to letting the bitch feed them) "just to make sure they are getting enough", without giving the bitch a chance to tend to the pups herself.

Unfortunately, I think they will continue to breed anyway, they just keep getting new bitches and offloading the 'used' ones to friends and relatives as pets (and charging for them)! They now think that the male is the reason that the pups are not surviving and are sending the bitches to studs.

It is very frustrating because they claim to love the dogs and are all gaga over them when they first get them but they are so easily discarded when they don't produce the goods.

[poodlefan]

It is very frustrating because they claim to love the dogs and are all gaga over them when they first get them but they are so easily discarded when they don't produce the goods.

All the love in the world is no substitute for knowledge. Its all fine when a dog is bright and shiny and you can see the dollar signs above its head but when reality sets in...

I'm not a breeder either but wouldn't even ATTEMPT to whelp and raise a litter without a top notch mentor. If these folk are newbs to the breed and taking it in a direction that's not in its interests, they're hardly going to have experienced SBT people falling over themselves to mentor them.

[SparkyTansy]

This has been very interesting! I am tempted to forward on all this info to someone I know that breeds Blue staffies. They are registered breeders, they breed with registered dogs (they don't show their dogs) and their dogs are loved and well cared for BUT they definately breed for the money. They have not had much luck so far as in they haven't had a single litter that has arrived safely and that more than one or two pups have survived. Could this also be because of the blue gene? Also, I have noticed that their dogs are HUGE!(not so much in height but in mass and head size) Way bigger than the SBT I've seen at shows. Is this also a feature of the blue? Recently they sent one of their bitches to a stud dog and they very proudly told me that she was heaps bigger than the stud?!

A perfect example of the argument... this person is breeding for colour, so is overlooking things that good, ethical breeders would take into consideration. It isn't a result of the blue gene, but a result of not looking at the dogs overall, and their ability to produce healthy specimens that conform to the standard. Breeding is so much about taking as much as you can into consideration when choosing to breed a bitch to a dog.

We forget that at one stage nearly every breed was bred having specific traits in mind. Examples in my own breeds are the coat colour of the weimaraner, and the coat colour/patterning of the english setter. The Irish setter, too, was eventually bred with a solid red coat when the original setter was predominantly white with red. One of the original standards for the Old English had written that dogs with bob tails should be chosen over dogs without, until docking came about and made it no longer a requirement to select for the bob tail gene. The difference, in many of these cases, and still today with ethical breeders, is that yes these things can be looked and bred for, but most of the time, the overall health and/or working ability is taken into consideration. Unhealthy lines are bred out, dogs that cannot work were not bred from, dogs that do not conform to the standard are removed from the gene pool. This isn't happening with blue staffies, because people are taking the crap ones and breeding them to other crap ones, just because they are blue. If dollar signs are the motivation, and not the breed, there is always going to be an issue.

Just a teeny correction on Nekhbets detailed post on genetics (but please correct me if i am wrong). The litter doesnt result in 1 in 4 pups showing the trait, but more that each puppy has a 25% chance of inheriting and showing that trait (and in the case of blues a 50% chance of being a carrier of that trait).

Edited July 28, 2010 by SparkyTansy

[grumpette]

It is also very likely that the health problems result from closely linked genes not the gene that governs coat colour. When mum and dad's chromosomes duplicate and recombine the crossover occurs for a small section of the DNA that contains the colour gene and other genes close to it. Therefore as the coat gene replicates so do the other health related genes, as they love to stick together. Which means that you increase the chance of the colour gene, but also the bad health genes.

[Remarkabull]

Thanks for all the info . Sadly they will not be interested in hearing any of it. They think that because their dogs are registered purebred SBTs that they bought off other registered breeders that there is no 'health' problems or in fact any other problems with what they are doing. It seems to me that all of the SBT breeders that breed ONLY blue or blue fawn are sticking together and telling each other that it's all good and that they are doing it for the love of the breed and not the $$$. It is interesting to notice how much more expensive that blue and blue fawn SBTs are to purchase, and that the people buying them are either themselves breeders of the same breed and colour or people that want them because they think that the blue is such a pretty colour and wouldn't know a good SBT if it jumped up and bit them!

When and how did the whole 'blue' thing start anyway? I've noticed an increasing number of blue dobermanns as well being advertised. All of the blues that I've known have had skin problems and as they grow into adults they loose alot of their hair. Is it this way with all blue dobes or just some?

Sorry, I have kind of taken over this thread but am really interested in the answers. I have had dobes all my life (pets, not show or breeding) and as my children get older I would like to start showing and possibly breeding them.

[Sandra777]

It seems to me that all of the SBT breeders that breed ONLY blue or blue fawn are sticking together and telling each other that it's all good and that they are doing it for the love of the breed

And any criticism or advice is viewed as being jealousy from other breeders or motivated solely by snobbish beliefs that a Staffordshire Bull Terrier should look a certain way where as the truth is that "unless they're for show it doesn't really matter". Blues apparently don't win in the show ring because of prejudice from judges and the jealous show people telling judges not to put them up.

I don't understand the fascination with the colour myself, if I wanted a silver dog with yellow eyes I'd buy a BYB Wei.

[Remarkabull]

Colour dosn't really bother me. If the dog is a nice looking dog then it dosn't matter what colour it is. I remember seeing a lady at the beach one day with a blue staffy pup and there were a lot of people around her saying how beautiful the pup was and what a pretty colour! When I got close enough to see the pup, it looked terrible. Definately not a good example of the breed and generally just not a nice looking dog at all. Everyone was so caught up in the colour (as, i suppose was she) that they failed to notice that it was not a nice looking dog at all.

I must say though, that I am not a fan of blue Dobermanns. To me it just dosn't look right. Personally, i prefer black and tan but I have seen some lovely reds too.

[DerRottweiler]

Are there any blue SBTs in the show ring?

You could have a pretty good dog with a different nose colour...(given that ''not-black'' is not a DQ fault)....

[SparkyTansy]

It seems to me that all of the SBT breeders that breed ONLY blue or blue fawn are sticking together and telling each other that it's all good and that they are doing it for the love of the breed

And any criticism or advice is viewed as being jealousy from other breeders or motivated solely by snobbish beliefs that a Staffordshire Bull Terrier should look a certain way where as the truth is that "unless they're for show it doesn't really matter". Blues apparently don't win in the show ring because of prejudice from judges and the jealous show people telling judges not to put them up.

I don't understand the fascination with the colour myself, if I wanted a silver dog with yellow eyes I'd buy a BYB Wei.

Um... a BYB Wei? so you'd support a BYB anyway? Why? Weimaraners ARE silver with yellow/amber eyes... the incorrect ones are BLUE...

[Greytmate]

It seems to me that all of the SBT breeders that breed ONLY blue or blue fawn are sticking together and telling each other that it's all good and that they are doing it for the love of the breed

And any criticism or advice is viewed as being jealousy from other breeders or motivated solely by snobbish beliefs that a Staffordshire Bull Terrier should look a certain way where as the truth is that "unless they're for show it doesn't really matter". Blues apparently don't win in the show ring because of prejudice from judges and the jealous show people telling judges not to put them up.

I don't understand the fascination with the colour myself, if I wanted a silver dog with yellow eyes I'd buy a BYB Wei.

Um... a BYB Wei? so you'd support a BYB anyway? Why? Weimaraners ARE silver with yellow/amber eyes... the incorrect ones are BLUE...

You can get a well bred pure bred blue greyhound with papers for next to nothing if you want a nice blue dog. Because greyhounds are not bred for colour, the blue ones tend to be just as healthy as any other in the breed. The rare few that are possibly affected by any negative health consequences of the dilute gene only ever tend to have very minor problems.

[Sandra777]

I don't understand the fascination with the colour myself, if I wanted a silver dog with yellow eyes I'd buy a BYB Wei.

Um... a BYB Wei? so you'd support a BYB anyway? Why? Weimaraners ARE silver with yellow/amber eyes... the incorrect ones are BLUE...

Sorry SparkyTansy obviously you do not do sarcasm

And the correct amber eyes on a well bred Wei are very different to yellow eyes. shudder.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Sandra777

[SparkyTansy]

I don't understand the fascination with the colour myself, if I wanted a silver dog with yellow eyes I'd buy a BYB Wei.

Um... a BYB Wei? so you'd support a BYB anyway? Why? Weimaraners ARE silver with yellow/amber eyes... the incorrect ones are BLUE...

Sorry SparkyTansy obviously you not do sarcasm

And the correct amber eyes on a well bred Wei are very different to yellow eyes. shudder.

sorry I get it now just read it out of context!!

[Earthdog]

I just spent some time looking at the puppy listings.

I could buy a black brindle puppy for $700 but a blue with white paws would set me back $2800... do they shit gold?

[ellz]

Are there any blue SBTs in the show ring?

You could have a pretty good dog with a different nose colour...(given that ''not-black'' is not a DQ fault)....

Very few in the ring. Most people tend to show once or twice and give up because they realise quickly they're pushing uphill.

Yes, you COULD have a pretty good dog with a different nose colour.......only not a blue one!

[macka]

I just don't understand why blue is allowed in the breed standard, when by virtue of being blue, these dogs are unable to meet another criterion in the standard, ie. black nose.

[Sandra777]

I just don't understand why blue is allowed in the breed standard, when by virtue of being blue, these dogs are unable to meet another criterion in the standard, ie. black nose.

Because when blue was included in the standard (and it wasn't acceptable when the breed was originally recognised by the KC) a lot less was understood about genetics and (I'm convinced) the people who wrote the revised standard understood perfectly well what they intended. Those closely associated with blue at that time (and their weren't many) were aiming for a very dark "pigeon blue" which comes with an extremely dark almost black nose. I believe they weren't really considering the existance of the silvers/ greys/washed out browns that get around as blues now, with the light grey nose to match - because they had a lot of experience in the breed and wouldn't have considered dogs of this colour to be correct so wouldn't have bred from them.

The same standard requires the muzzle to be "short" but accepted wisdom is that the muzzle should be 1/2 the length of the skull, which isn't really all that "short" in most people's minds

There are many things in many breed standards which don't make sense unless you understand the history of the breed and it's purpose.

[Maddy]

Everyone was so caught up in the colour *snip*

I find it a little odd that part of the appeal is the perceived "rarity" of the colour* when a quick glance through the staffy breeder listing brings up a fairly considerable number of kennels who breed only blues (you can usually pick these kennels by name- they tend to end with the highly original suffix "blu").

So.. they're not really rare (unless "rare" means "there's a metric sh*t-tonne of them around").

*A vast majority of advertising for blue staffies is based around the colour being "rare", not any other positive traits such as temperament or conformation.

[Skitch]

I live in Port Pirie in SA and I think there is a staffy breeder (not sure if they are a reputable breeder, have never paid much attention) up here that breeds blues as I see them advertised often on the message board where I work. I had no idea there were problems behind the colour.. kind of OT but blue coloration has similar problems in the rat world, too!