Can You Breed A Healthy Blue Staffy?

[poodlefan]

Colour (or lack of) sure can cause health issues, not just in Staffords. Too much white on the head of an Australian Shepherd (such as from merle to merle matings) can cause deafness and blindness. Which is why our standard is particular on the amount of pigment a dog needs.

Rumour has it that mating of very white particoloured Whippets has seen deafness crop up in the breed.

There is a definite link between black dogs and increased risk of some cancers and between black and tan dogs and susceptability to parvo.

And of course the lethal white gene crops up in merle to merle matings.. in dogs and in paint horses.

Poodlefan I am interested in this bit. I have a staffy who is black with minimal white markings. I don't know her full history but I doubt she came from a registered breeder. She was diagnosed with cancerous tumours about 3 years ago. They have not been treatable and they are everywhere all over her body. These have not negatively affected her in any way. A couple of months ago she was diagnosed with mammary cancer. Again no treatment is possible but she remains well. She's almost 16 so her quality of life is very important to me and her level of health and activity surprises me daily even though I know that will change at some point. I'd never heard about the link between cancer and black dogs so would be interested in what kinds of cancers are likely to see if she fits the profile.

Off the top of my head, the main two are bone cancer and Haemangiosarcoma - but I'll post up some links when I get home.

[Sandra777]

So can Blue staffies be well bred and healthy?

Can Blue Staffords be well bred? Well define "well bred" first

Can Blue Staffords be healthy? Yes of course they can - but it is a matter of odds. Which would you bet on - someone who choses a breeding pair because of the colour they are or will produce or someone who choses a breeding pair because they are both healthy, have correct temperament for their breed and are good examples of their breed?

Another issue is that with a recessive gene (blue is a recessive dilute) the dogs carrying that gene are necessarily limited in number and are often very closely related so IF one or two of the original dogs used had a specific issue then the chances are that issue will be passed on (allergies have a genetic component)

Add to that the fact of dilute alopecia, and a breed which if not bred with care does suffer from skin issues more than average for dogs as a whole then you open a whole pandora's box.

I didn't think a colour could cause health issues.

Google lethal merle genes. Now THAT'S a health issue caused solely by colour

I have seen one blue SBT in Australia and 2 blue SBT in the UK which I would consider to be good examples of the breed.

[stormie]

Just for the record, we see lots of Staffy's in general, with skin issues. I don't know if it's the 'well bred' lines and we're just mostly seeing poorly bred BYB staffy's, but it seems quite common in the breed from my experience, regardless of colour.

[Sayly]

I didn't think a colour could cause health issues.

Google lethal merle genes. Now THAT'S a health issue caused solely by colour

The gene itself is not actually lethal. A double up of the merle gene causes blindess and deafness in some/most pups. The name came about because and double merle pups were usually put to sleep at birth.

[Sandra777]

I didn't think a colour could cause health issues.

Google lethal merle genes. Now THAT'S a health issue caused solely by colour

The gene itself is not actually lethal. A double up of the merle gene causes blindess and deafness in some/most pups. The name came about because and double merle pups were usually put to sleep at birth.

And merle is a colour gene is it not?

[Sayly]

I didn't think a colour could cause health issues.

Google lethal merle genes. Now THAT'S a health issue caused solely by colour

The gene itself is not actually lethal. A double up of the merle gene causes blindess and deafness in some/most pups. The name came about because and double merle pups were usually put to sleep at birth.

And merle is a colour gene is it not?

It's a gene that affects colour, yes. I don't see the point to the last question though?

The blind/deafness is a health issue caused solely by colour (or lack of) but the gene it self does not cause pups to die, breeder's putting the pups to sleep due to the possible health problems cause them to die.

[MolassesLass]

I didn't think a colour could cause health issues.

Google lethal merle genes. Now THAT'S a health issue caused solely by colour

The gene itself is not actually lethal. A double up of the merle gene causes blindess and deafness in some/most pups. The name came about because and double merle pups were usually put to sleep at birth.

And merle is a colour gene is it not?

A marking gene really (like Irish Spotting, Tricolour, Pied).

[Cordelia]

Poodlefan I am interested in this bit. I have a staffy who is black with minimal white markings. I don't know her full history but I doubt she came from a registered breeder. She was diagnosed with cancerous tumours about 3 years ago. They have not been treatable and they are everywhere all over her body. These have not negatively affected her in any way. A couple of months ago she was diagnosed with mammary cancer. Again no treatment is possible but she remains well. She's almost 16 so her quality of life is very important to me and her level of health and activity surprises me daily even though I know that will change at some point. I'd never heard about the link between cancer and black dogs so would be interested in what kinds of cancers are likely to see if she fits the profile.

I dare say the most likely reason your staffy has cancer is that she is 16yrs old (and started the others at 13yrs).. pretty typical for any dog that age to develop lumps and bumps whilst still kicking on. She's doing very well to get to the age she has!

[3Woofs]

So can Blue staffies be well bred and healthy? I didn't think a colour could cause health issues.

Yes I believe so but unlikely to be well bred if it's a dilute to dilute mating.

A friend of mine has been breeding quality staffords for over 30 years and and has had the odd blue pop up in a litter over the years. These pups were in the same litters as champions and grand champions and she has said that if the blue pup had happened to be the pick of the litter, then she would happily show and breed it.... So yes it is possible to have well bred and healthy blues.

[bedazzledx2]

Interesting.... is that across the board black and tan dogs or is it limited to certain breeds? I'm wondering about black and tan kelpies. Does it relate to tri colours....wondering if the white has any effect?

Colour (or lack of) sure can cause health issues, not just in Staffords. Too much white on the head of an Australian Shepherd (such as from merle to merle matings) can cause deafness and blindness. Which is why our standard is particular on the amount of pigment a dog needs.

Rumour has it that mating of very white particoloured Whippets has seen deafness crop up in the breed.

There is a definite link between black dogs and increased risk of some cancers and between black and tan dogs and susceptability to parvo.

And of course the lethal white gene crops up in merle to merle matings.. in dogs and in paint horses.

We covered something in a lecture today about black and tan dogs and a type of antibiotic use (sulphonamide);

... acute idiosyncratic hepatopathy also reported in black and tan type breeds

[Nekhbet]

think of it this way, when you focus on ONE trait in a species you are bound to get problems as you are not quality controlling the other possibly harmful genes being passed along.

FIrstly a very basic lesson in genetics.

You have 2 copies of chromosomes, one set from your mum and one set from your dad. So think of these as the big fat compiled books.

Now each chromosome carries within it different genes, so these are like the blueprints that code for things.

You have 2 copies of each gene, one from mum and one from dad. Genes can be either Dominant (what they express shows up no matter what the other copy codes for) recessive (need 2 copies of the same to show the trait, these are usually mutations that cause a problem or lack of something in the animal, like albinism [lack of pigment]) there are also codominant genes where both copies will show up in the animal (eg cross a white cow with a red cow and get an inbetweeny colour)

So in staffies, some dogs can be carriers of the blue gene but not show it, but mate it with another dog that has the blue gene and you will get some blue pups

if both dogs are carriers of the blue gene you will have 1 in 4 pups being blue

ok this is for rabbits but just substitute a = blue staffy gene so aa = blue staffy; AA, Aa = normal colour as the dominant A gene shows up over the defective a gene

hope that makes sense.

NOW - blue colours in dogs is a dilute. THis means the gene coding for blue is RECESSIVE (ie needs 2 copies to show up) and also carries with it some skin problems. Hence, in order to make lots and lots of blue staffies you want to use blue dogs, which are double on the recessive blue gene. Since these make up a small proportion of the gene pool, you will have to skimp a little on quality to get the numbers up. So you accept dogs that dont look quite good, are a bit too big or small, maybe dont have perfect health scores etc. If you want to breed ONLY blues you have to use an only blue dog, as using any other colour will mask most of your blue pups and less $$. Soon you're bottlenecking your own gene variety because to get consistence in ONE trait means sacrificing quality in other traits. You have to ignore considering some other traits or you cannot perpetuate the rarer receessive gene.

Nature made recessive genes hard to breed and express for a reason. They're usually a mutation that causes a problem when two individuals that share close genetics breed and hence the double recessive gene individual gets either the short end of the health stick or dies at a fairly young age.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Nekhbet

[Gayle.]

I didn't think a colour could cause health issues.

Google lethal merle genes. Now THAT'S a health issue caused solely by colour

The gene itself is not actually lethal. A double up of the merle gene causes blindess and deafness in some/most pups. The name came about because and double merle pups were usually put to sleep at birth.

And merle is a colour gene is it not?

Merle isn't a colour, it's more of a pattern gene, I suppose. But it definitely doesn't set the colour.

[Little Gifts]

This is what I love about DOL - all the knowledge!

[Sandra777]

I didn't think a colour could cause health issues.

Google lethal merle genes. Now THAT'S a health issue caused solely by colour

The gene itself is not actually lethal. A double up of the merle gene causes blindess and deafness in some/most pups. The name came about because and double merle pups were usually put to sleep at birth.

And merle is a colour gene is it not?

Merle isn't a colour, it's more of a pattern gene, I suppose. But it definitely doesn't set the colour.

The dilution gene which causes blue isn't a colour gene either, but a modifier of an existing colour. So question stands but is modified too LOL.

Merle x Merle results in health issues which would mean the animal would be unlikely survive in the wild. So yes, coat colour(markings) can affect health.

[shmoo]

Melanocytes

Melanocytes are melanin-producing cells located in the bottom layer of the skin's epidermis, the middle layer of the eye, the inner ear, meninges, bones, and heart. Melanin is a pigment which is primarily responsible for the color of skin.

I've added a link for those who want to read more about the link between coat colour and health issues.

[Greytmate]

Poodlefan I am interested in this bit. I have a staffy who is black with minimal white markings. I don't know her full history but I doubt she came from a registered breeder. She was diagnosed with cancerous tumours about 3 years ago. They have not been treatable and they are everywhere all over her body. These have not negatively affected her in any way. A couple of months ago she was diagnosed with mammary cancer. Again no treatment is possible but she remains well. She's almost 16 so her quality of life is very important to me and her level of health and activity surprises me daily even though I know that will change at some point. I'd never heard about the link between cancer and black dogs so would be interested in what kinds of cancers are likely to see if she fits the profile.

Staffies are genetically brindle, not black.

[Danois]

http://www.chromadane.com/chlinx.htm#linkk9color

There are a lot of articles linked here (scroll down) re coat colours in different breeds.

The Punnett Squares article is a constant reference source.

[Aussienot]

A genetic scientist once told me that any time you limit the gene pool you will end up with genetic alterations in subsequent generations. Doesn't matter what feature you are breeding for, by selecting for that particular thing you are setting up for a genetic issue. It's possible to be a 'good' outcome, but more likely will give rise to skin problems, eye problems, respitory problems, heart problems, etc.

Particularly with recessive genes (limited) of particular colour (limited) it gets harder and harder to produce puppies of a heath standard that is acceptable. There are dozens of examples of breeds that have been ruined this way already.

[Remarkabull]

This has been very interesting! I am tempted to forward on all this info to someone I know that breeds Blue staffies. They are registered breeders, they breed with registered dogs (they don't show their dogs) and their dogs are loved and well cared for BUT they definately breed for the money. They have not had much luck so far as in they haven't had a single litter that has arrived safely and that more than one or two pups have survived. Could this also be because of the blue gene? Also, I have noticed that their dogs are HUGE!(not so much in height but in mass and head size) Way bigger than the SBT I've seen at shows. Is this also a feature of the blue? Recently they sent one of their bitches to a stud dog and they very proudly told me that she was heaps bigger than the stud?!

[Sandra777]

They have not had much luck so far as in they haven't had a single litter that has arrived safely and that more than one or two pups have survived. Could this also be because of the blue gene? Also, I have noticed that their dogs are HUGE!(not so much in height but in mass and head size) Way bigger than the SBT I've seen at shows. Is this also a feature of the blue? Recently they sent one of their bitches to a stud dog and they very proudly told me that she was heaps bigger than the stud?!

The whelping problems could likely be no more than they are breeding from a family of bitches with bad whelping tendencies. Of course any ethical breeder would stop doing it, but if you are breeding for colour you breed from bitches because of their colour, regardless of their ability to free whelp

and care for their puppies well.

Huge, well blues are not alone in being WAAY over sized, but again breeding for colour means you breed from a dog or bitch regardless of how it fits the breed standard for size - and if you get a couple of big dogs/bitches in there then chances are you'll keep getting more of them. Also if you don't know anything about what you're doing apart from "breeding cool blue dogs" then chances are you would think bigger is better - doG knows some show people AND judges! seem to think this. There are some who suggest the Amstaff has more than a passing acquaintence with some blue Staffords and by the look of some I would tend to agree with this sentiment.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Sandra777