Another Fit

[Kirislin]

I've just checked back on my records, first suspected fit was 6/4/09, 2nd 9/4/09, 3rd accompanied by vomiting, 30/7/09 and the 4th was last night and I found a pile of vomit outside. Dont know if it's relevant. One DOL'er said epilepsy doesn't cause vomiting but I'm noting it anyway.

I'm going to take these dates into the vets today and ask them to record them on his file.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Kirislin

[poodlefan]

I've just checked back on my records, first suspected fit was 6/4/09, 2nd 9/4/09, 3rd accompanied by vomiting, 30/7/09 and the 4th was last night and I found a pile of vomit outside. Dont know if it's relevant. One DOL'er said epilepsy doesn't cause vomiting but I'm noting it anyway.

I'm going to take these dates into the vets today and ask them to record them on his file.

According to that second website I posted, vomitting and/or defaction or urination are not uncommon side effects of a fit.

[Swizzlestick]

Not much to add Kirislin, except for huge cyber hugs from the whippets and I ;) ;)

[Swizzlestick]

Any updates on Puk today?

[Kirislin]

Tag? He's fine, you'd never know anything happened to him. Thanks for asking.

[Swizzlestick]

Tag? He's fine, you'd never know anything happened to him. Thanks for asking.

Sorry!!! I'm as usual, getting dogs confused!

Glad everything seems fine for now

[~Anne~]

I've have never, ever heard of vomitting with epilepsy.

I speak to people every week with epilpetic dogs and I read mailing lists everyday and I have never heard of a dog with epilepsy vomitting. However, that doesn't mean it can't happen obviously so be guided by your Vets.

There is no hard and fast rule for many things, I have discovered, with epilepsy in dogs.

There are umpteen ways that seizure activity can represent itself. My boy Monte alone has seizures or seizure activity ranging from simjple eye twitches to staring into space, to falling down drunk for a few seconds to dropping on his side and thrashing for quite some time.

The same with the post ictal pahes (the time after the seizure activity). Sometimes he will return to normal within minutes. Sometimes he will be sooky and need comforting. Sometimes he is manic and crashes into walls.

All I can suggest is that you record it on video if you can and seek the services of a professional.

If it is epilepsy, then that is actually far better than many other possible causes of the symptoms. Epilepsy is not a death sentence, it is just a blip on the horzin which can be dealt with more often than not. It is certainly not a death sentence for most dogs and it is not painful for them or upsetting for them in any way.

[KOE]

sounds like a fit , my older shepherd gets them, she has had serum taken from her spine and brain as they thought she had a tumour, had xrays, blood tests you name it and the only answer is fits and no known cause. She gets wobbly splays her legs get disorinated and appears to be in lala land and runs into things. This has been occurring for about 2 years now but still no answers, we just keep an eye on her and if she fits I hold her until she is over it.

best of luck

[Kirislin]

I've have never, ever heard of vomitting with epilepsy.

I speak to people every week with epilpetic dogs and I read mailing lists everyday and I have never heard of a dog with epilepsy vomitting. However, that doesn't mean it can't happen obviously so be guided by your Vets.

There is no hard and fast rule for many things, I have discovered, with epilepsy in dogs.

There are umpteen ways that seizure activity can represent itself. My boy Monte alone has seizures or seizure activity ranging from simjple eye twitches to staring into space, to falling down drunk for a few seconds to dropping on his side and thrashing for quite some time.

The same with the post ictal pahes (the time after the seizure activity). Sometimes he will return to normal within minutes. Sometimes he will be sooky and need comforting. Sometimes he is manic and crashes into walls.

All I can suggest is that you record it on video if you can and seek the services of a professional.

If it is epilepsy, then that is actually far better than many other possible causes of the symptoms. Epilepsy is not a death sentence, it is just a blip on the horzin which can be dealt with more often than not. It is certainly not a death sentence for most dogs and it is not painful for them or upsetting for them in any way.

I think each time I've found Tag like this I was seeing him in the post ictal phase.

I know it's not the same as people but I looked up seizures in humans and nausea was listed as a symptom in the "before" phase and the post ictal. I didn't mean I thought Tag was vomiting during his fit, I first noticed it last year when I found him wandering and confused, I assume post ictal, and he was mid vomit on the carpet, which is what woke me up in the first place. Whether vomiting is a symptom or not, it doesn't really change anything for Tag, something is going on with him. I just hope they dont become more frequent or severe.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and advice, I appreciate it.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Is there a reason your vet doesn't want Tag on seizure meds? Our vets advice is that meds are a good compromise due to the possibility of brain injury during or as a result of seizures. Molly had a very nasty episode last November after she had been off meds since May. A huge cluster of seizures which almost killed her and would have without quick action by us as guided by our vet by phone - she's been seizure-free as far as we know since resuming meds.

Sending you and Tag hugs. It's not an easy thing to watch them go through.

[Kirislin]

Because Tags seizures appear to be so infrequent. We both realise I might not have seen every one but the last one I know of before the other days was just over a year ago. They're just too far apart.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Molly had only had a few (that we knew of) and our vet recommended meds straight away. I did a lot of reading too...just to be sure it was the right choice. Since witnessing her cluster seizure last year and seeing her almost die, there isn't a chance I'd take her off the meds again. In prolonged seizure activity, the body and brain heat up to dangerous levels and this can kill the dog within minutes. We were just so lucky that we got hold of our vet by phone (we were in Tenant Creek NT and nearest vet was 4 hours by road away in Alice Springs). Without his advice/assistance by phone, we would have lost her. Her temperature had risen so fast that we could literally feel the change in her body as we were trying to get valium into her and as we were cooling her off in the shower.

I don't mean to frighten you, just alert you to the possibilities. Since Molly has been back on meds, we haven't noted any more seizures - that's not to say she's had none, but none that we've been around to see. She was mostly fitting in the late afternoon/early evening which is when one of us is usually home.

[Kirislin]

You saw it happening though, I've not seen that with Tag, I think I've only seen the post ictal phase, learned that term today, so we dont really know as yet just what we are dealing with. I am sure yours is the right decision for your situation.

[~Anne~]

Is there a reason your vet doesn't want Tag on seizure meds? Our vets advice is that meds are a good compromise due to the possibility of brain injury during or as a result of seizures. Molly had a very nasty episode last November after she had been off meds since May. A huge cluster of seizures which almost killed her and would have without quick action by us as guided by our vet by phone - she's been seizure-free as far as we know since resuming meds.

Sending you and Tag hugs. It's not an easy thing to watch them go through.

What was the reasoning behind stoppping the meds LM?

Kirislin, most Vets take the view that if the seizures are infrequent and short then the drugs are not neccessary. The drugs have many side affects and phenobarbitol can cause liver damage.

I guess it is all up to weighing up the risks of the condition with the risks of the medication.

I'd love to find someone in Australia who has their dog on another drug called Keppra which is apprently a better drug choice for some dogs, instead of, and in conjunction with bromide and pheno.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

At her bloods just over a year ago, the levels were below clinical effectiveness so the vet's advice was to take her off pheno...we hadn't noticed any seizure activity since leaving Canberra 2 yrs previously. I think we got a little complacent then, assuming that the issue had resolved itself. So the cluster was a HUGE shock and since resuming pheno, all has been well as far as we can tell. Molly's due for bloods again so we'll see what our new vet has to offer once results come through. Hoping the dose doesn't have to go up...and looking for info on alternatives if there are any.

[~Anne~]

At her bloods just over a year ago, the levels were below clinical effectiveness so the vet's advice was to take her off pheno...we hadn't noticed any seizure activity since leaving Canberra 2 yrs previously. I think we got a little complacent then, assuming that the issue had resolved itself. So the cluster was a HUGE shock and since resuming pheno, all has been well as far as we can tell. Molly's due for bloods again so we'll see what our new vet has to offer once results come through. Hoping the dose doesn't have to go up...and looking for info on alternatives if there are any.

I've heard Keppra is good from US friends, but can't find anyone using it in Oz.

Monte still clusters even with meds.

[Jacquiboss&scoop]

There are a couple ,

MIL red setter has Idiopathic type ( we know our schmoo is due to brain damage ) he has been on a combination of Pheno and a few other drugs will see if I can find the names of the ones they tried with him before they got it working well , he still has minor fits , but no major ones for a while. Their vet based now in Nowra was original with Sydney uni as a specialist nuro for canines . see if I can get the name for you as she is quite good .

[Ebony's Mum]

I would suggest that Tag has other fits that you haven't seen. I had a little girl, she was elderly, nearly 13, maltese, who had what I called gentle fits, not very often, that I saw. My Vet also, initially didn't put her on anything until possibly 2 months before she passed away. They were getting more frequent at the time.

I am so not saying this to worry you because Tag is so very young and you know his history. I only had Nina just shy of 2 years so didn't know her history and unfortunately after an early morning fit and then me going to work and coming home, she had passed away on me.

It's something to think about, in that they may not be as irregular as you say.

Ebony's Mum.

[Kirislin]

I would suggest that Tag has other fits that you haven't seen. I had a little girl, she was elderly, nearly 13, maltese, who had what I called gentle fits, not very often, that I saw. My Vet also, initially didn't put her on anything until possibly 2 months before she passed away. They were getting more frequent at the time.

I am so not saying this to worry you because Tag is so very young and you know his history. I only had Nina just shy of 2 years so didn't know her history and unfortunately after an early morning fit and then me going to work and coming home, she had passed away on me.

It's something to think about, in that they may not be as irregular as you say.

Ebony's Mum.

It's quite possible, I mentioned that in a previous post.

Because Tags seizures appear to be so infrequent. We both realise I might not have seen every one but the last one I know of before the other days was just over a year ago. They're just too far apart.

I am fully aware of that but until I can see more evidence the vet wont medicate as it stands now. My dogs are with me almost 24/7. I can only base it on what I have seen.

I know you are just trying to make me aware and not worry me deliberately, thanks, but there's nothing I can do about it just yet. I still have not actually ever seen him have a fit. I watched my horse smash his head to pieces having a fit, I know how devastating it can be....sadly. but so far Tags appear, only from what I have seen, to be few and far apart. I know that could change, but then again, maybe he will never have another. I hope so. It's worrying though.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Kirislin

[Ebony's Mum]

Definitely not trying to worry, and I also didn't realise you were with him that amount of time. I am away from home for 10 hours every day, so I certainly missed alot of what goes on. And like others have said, until it is frequent medication is not brought into it yet.

Good luck with Tag.