Papers Question..

[ellz]

These breeders seem to do everything else right by my standards (vaccinate, worm and microchip puppies before rehoming, dont let them go until after 12 weeks, etc)

Papers aside, the breeders should also be doing health tests on the parents and providing proof. Vaccinating, worming and microchipping, while very commendable are often done by backyard breeders to establish "authenticity" as a breeder when they are anything but. Hips and elbow scores, eye tests, DNA testing etc, these are the tests that ethical breeders carry out on their breeding stock to ensure they aren't generating inheritable defects.

Also, 12 weeks is a little old for a puppy to be going to it's new home. They should be pretty weel established with their new family and getting out and about and being socialised by that age.

Crap, there are breeders more than capable of socialising pups and 12 weeks is not too old to be leaving home.

I'm sure there are plenty of breeders capable, but what's the advantage of keeping a puppy destined to be a pet until 12 weeks of age?

My puppies don't leave home until around 10 weeks of age, sometimes later. I often don't choose my keepers until that time. I also don't do my first vaccination until 8 weeks and chip at around the same time. And if I decide to run a couple of littermates on, then they aren't shown until 3 months and after that time I may sell one or all of what I have kept depending upon its progress.

[megan_]

Even if the pup is on limited register, they should come with papers. Papers aren't only important for showing and breeding. Papers are proof of your pup's heritage and proof that they are purebred. Why go to all the trouble of getting a purebred without knowing the dog's heritage?

I wouldn't buy from any breeder who wanted me to pay more for papers. Ethics and all that.

[poodlemum]

Even if the pup is on limited register, they should come with papers. Papers aren't only important for showing and breeding. Papers are proof of your pup's heritage and proof that they are purebred. Why go to all the trouble of getting a purebred without knowing the dog's heritage?

I wouldn't buy from any breeder who wanted me to pay more for papers. Ethics and all that.

[chelle~aussie~dragon]

Personally I feel with all the effort a breeder goes to to produce a pup including time which these days means money I think a breeder is entitled to price extra for mains papers if they wish.The buyer doesn't have to buy or can go else where.Its like the housing market, the house is worth what you pay for it.

[Christina]

Pups going to new home at 12 weeks is fine. My little ones are desexed before they go so may be with me until they are at least 10 weeks & sometimes 12 weeks for girls & extra tiny ones.

This has never been a problem. Full socialisation is not possible until vaccs are complete, which they can't be at 8 weeks, so mine are taken out carried or in a doggie pram from 6 weeks old. No problem bonding with owners & house training, lead training, grooming etc already started so its easier for them.

The few weeks make no difference at all to settling in a new home.

[Gayle.]

Of course there are going to be exceptions, there always are but the vast majority of breeders don't desex pups prior to sale and do adher to standard vaccination protocol. It's not the mark of an ethical breeder to hang onto pups til they are 12 weeks of age, it's simply the circumstances of that particular breeder.

Pups being run on for the show ring aren't obviously destined to be pets. But lots more puppies are.

[ellz]

It's not the mark of an ethical breeder to hang onto pups til they are 12 weeks of age, it's simply the circumstances of that particular breeder.

Sorry Gayle, but that is your opinion and your opinion only. MANY breeders do not rehome until they are 12 weeks of age and I would defy anybody to say that they aren't ethical.

[Gayle.]

I didn't say they weren't ethical, you misunderstood what I meant. Noe I think I've lost track too. It's not unethical to sell pups at 8 weeks of age. Going back to the OP, one of her criteria is not rehoming pups til 12 weeks whereas it's perfectly fine and just as ethical to send them to their new homes at 8 weeks.

[ellz]

It's not unethical to sell puppies at 12 weeks of age either. In some breeds, it is quite normal.

I think probably what it is best to say is that provided a breeder is doing the right thing by their puppies by way of socialisation etc, it is perfectly permissible to place puppies at ANY age.

The norm USED to be 8 weeks, but in my experience in recent years, the people who are keenest to shunt them out the door on the dot of 8 weeks of age are the ones who seem to like to collect the money but not the responsibility IYKWIM.

[oakway]

I honestly believe that it will very difficult to purchase a puppy under 12 weeks in the future.

Some ethical breeders are quite loath to let some breeds go under that age at the moment.

If mandatory de sexing does come in, purchasers will not be seeing a pup in their home under 12 weeks.

[Rebanne]

Also, 12 weeks is a little old for a puppy to be going to it's new home.

Totally untrue

[Darkrai]

I would never buy a pup from a breeder who didn't give a pedigree paper or charged extra...

[Gayle.]

Also, 12 weeks is a little old for a puppy to be going to it's new home.

Totally untrue

Yeah, poor choice of words on my part but I think I clarified what I meant further on.

[Jacquiboss&scoop]

What breed is OP looking at ? in rotties I have not seen with or without papers from good breeders and kennels since the late 80's ?

OP might want to expand their pup search to breeders who do main and limited register only , drop into a few champion shows and have a chat to people with dogs that you like as long as you are polite and aware that when someone is getting ready to go into the ring or otherwise engaged they might be a little short on time to chat .

Extra for a main register puppy is again unusual , I have seen higher than average charged for particular lines and breeding, but this tends to reflect over the whole litter

Good luck finding your new friend

[becks]

I wonder where the OP is finding breeders if they are all asking such a lot more to sell a pup with papers?

[Wazzat Xolo]

These breeders seem to do everything else right by my standards (vaccinate, worm and microchip puppies before rehoming, dont let them go until after 12 weeks, etc)

Papers aside, the breeders should also be doing health tests on the parents and providing proof. Vaccinating, worming and microchipping, while very commendable are often done by backyard breeders to establish "authenticity" as a breeder when they are anything but. Hips and elbow scores, eye tests, DNA testing etc, these are the tests that ethical breeders carry out on their breeding stock to ensure they aren't generating inheritable defects.

Also, 12 weeks is a little old for a puppy to be going to it's new home. They should be pretty weel established with their new family and getting out and about and being socialised by that age.

My puppies will not be leaving my house until 12 weeks old and I do not consider it too old, the pets will be sterilised as well by that age. The dogs will have had the early socialisation that they need from me.

My dogs will all come "with papers" whether limit or Main and copies of the parents health scores, and each dog is DNA profiled.

edit to add Gayel K just re read your last post

Maybe the original posters query could be answered by the Main and Limit Papers available ??

J

Edited July 27, 2010 by Wazzat Xolo

[Mystiqview]

From what I read of the OP post, it does not seem to be a question of main vs limited register quality. I read it as a "breeder" is charging a large sum of money to get papers (of any kind).

If this is indeed the case, then the OP should run as far away from this "breeder" as possible. If the breeder is respectable and ethical, the puppy will at least come with Limit Register papers at NO extra charge (Let alone hundreds of dollars)

Also from what I read of the OP post, they are only wanting a pet in the first instance. If they had explained that to the breeder, then most of us would think (or think to ask) what they intend to do with said puppy (ie. breed/show or companion animal).

I am sure if the OP has asked a breeder for a show quality puppy for showing/breeding, then they would be prepared or may have expected a price difference between show quality or limit register.

As for 12 weeks and desexing. All personal preferences. I prefer my pups to go at 8 weeks and am happy for desexing to occur between 6-12 months depending on female/male. Again it's personal preference and I don't honestly think it is a reflection on quality of the breeder whether they desex early, vaccinate at 6 weeks or 12 weeks, or let pups go at 8 weeks or 10-12.

[Wazzat Xolo]

I cant make any judgement on any breederas I dont know why they do what they do! lol

I would just assume that all pups would come with papers be in Limit or main (as thats what I do) .

I personally cant see why one one charge extra money for papers but thats just me !

J

[Bilbo Baggins]

This type of thread occurs so frequently.

Its outside the the KC standards and not on.

[Skitch]

Being that I used to be a veterinary nurse at a clinic heavily used by breeders, the 12 weeks age is my personal preference developed from my own experience. Should have made that clearer. I understand that most puppies will do fine at 8 weeks but I prefer 12 weeks due to the added socialization benefits (again, this is my own opinion.. I'm not saying it's what should or shouldn't be done!). I understand about health checks and different parameters for different breeds and the things I listed were just an example of what I considered acceptable.. hence the 'etc'!

Anyway, we're on the right track now.. looking for pups that are atleast on limited register. Thanks for all your help