Papers Question..

[Skitch]

Hey

A friend of mine is purchasing a new puppy for her family and I've been helping her out where I can. Originally she was going to buy from a petstop that happened to have her chosen breed but I talked her into buying from a breeder and promised her the extra money would be worth it! She has agreed and we've been doing a bit of inquiring..

I've found that alot of people offer pups both with and without papers? Like, we'll ask how much for a puppy and they'll say "$700 with papers or $500 without". I was wondering if this was a mark of a bad breeder? I dont understand how the papering system works but I always thought you had to register the litter as a whole.. how are these people offering puppies with or without papers? These breeders seem to do everything else right by my standards (vaccinate, worm and microchip puppies before rehoming, dont let them go until after 12 weeks, etc) but this papering thing is making me wonder.. should we steer clear of people who say things like this?

My friend doesn't want the puppy for breeding or showing purposes so would be happy to have an unpapered puppy but at the same time she doesn't want to give her money to a dodgy breeder.

Dont bother suggesting a rescue dog either, we've explored that avenue.. she wants a puppy and wants it to be purebred. That's her right and Im happy for her especially because she's chosen to buy from a breeder!

[Mystiqview]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By ANKC law, papers must go with the puppy. Whether that be Limited Registration or Main.

Limit = You get pedigree papers, you can compete in all ANKC dog sports as a pedigree. You cannot breed or conformation show

Main: No limitations. You can compete in all sports as a pedigree. You can enter into ANKC shows and breed (as long as you have ANKC membership, breeder prefix etc)

[Skitch]

Ah.. so is what they're offering us maybe limited vs. main papers? That's not how they explain it though! I guess we'll ask more questions..

[Mystiqview]

I know of some registered breeders (who are also judges) who have sold pups here in Qld without papers. Advertised them on petlink and their website. THey advertised them as from pedigree parents. From memory the health testing had been done as well. But unfortunately that is not the point.

We as registered breeders must register the litter as a whole and to charge an extra $200 for papers is a rip off. It only costs me $30/pup to register on either main or limited. The other costs per pup are the same as well (excluding any specialised vet care that may have been needed).

[Skitch]

Wow really!? We found that most people seem to charge an extra $200 for papers when we ask them how much.. huge rip off considering it costs so little to register a litter, thanks for the insight

[Mystiqview]

Limit registration has essentially replaced no papers and some old breeders MAY (but shouldn't) refer to them as no papers. It has been Main and Limit Registration for some time now.

They still should not be charging $200 for papers.

[Parkeyre]

There's a breeder here in SA in my breed who sells her pups for $1100 without papers and $1500 with papers. She has never titled or worked her dogs in any avenue yet charges such a huge amount. Crazy.

ETA: Limit OR Main Register.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Parkeyre

[Skitch]

Cripes..$400 extra just for papers?! Insane.. :/.

[oakway]

It is not necessarily the papers you are paying for in many cases its the quality of the dog.

A main registered show perspective puppy are often charged more for than a limited registered pet quality puppy.

[Skitch]

Oh I completely understand that a breeder might choose to put a pup on limited or main for different reasons.. but the way the breeders we've spoken to put it, it seems that we could have any pup from the litter and it would cost $200 extra for papers regardless.

I think we're on the right track now.. we'll be looking for a pup on limited register!

[Parkeyre]

I am yet to breed a litter, and I don't know if I'm going to charge a different price for Main or Limit, but if i do it wont be much difference as there will be a desex rebate always and all pups will come with papers. They have to - it's against ANKC rules.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Parkeyre

[oakway]

Oh I completely understand that a breeder might choose to put a pup on limited or main for different reasons.. but the way the breeders we've spoken to put it, it seems that we could have any pup from the litter and it would cost $200 extra for papers regardless.

I think we're on the right track now.. we'll be looking for a pup on limited register!

Sounds good to me.

[Christina]

States vary but in SA all litters must be registered. So should come with papers limited or main.

Registration here is a fairly small cost about $24 for litter reg + $20 something $'s, small variation for limited or main per puppy, so papers should not be hundred of $'s extra anyway.

They have just brought in a new thing here dog shows for desexed dogs.

Expect a price variation for breed/show dog & a pet sometimes , not unusual depending on breeder.

[Gayle.]

These breeders seem to do everything else right by my standards (vaccinate, worm and microchip puppies before rehoming, dont let them go until after 12 weeks, etc)

Papers aside, the breeders should also be doing health tests on the parents and providing proof. Vaccinating, worming and microchipping, while very commendable are often done by backyard breeders to establish "authenticity" as a breeder when they are anything but. Hips and elbow scores, eye tests, DNA testing etc, these are the tests that ethical breeders carry out on their breeding stock to ensure they aren't generating inheritable defects.

Also, 12 weeks is a little old for a puppy to be going to it's new home. They should be pretty weel established with their new family and getting out and about and being socialised by that age.

[WreckitWhippet]

These breeders seem to do everything else right by my standards (vaccinate, worm and microchip puppies before rehoming, dont let them go until after 12 weeks, etc)

Papers aside, the breeders should also be doing health tests on the parents and providing proof. Vaccinating, worming and microchipping, while very commendable are often done by backyard breeders to establish "authenticity" as a breeder when they are anything but. Hips and elbow scores, eye tests, DNA testing etc, these are the tests that ethical breeders carry out on their breeding stock to ensure they aren't generating inheritable defects.

Also, 12 weeks is a little old for a puppy to be going to it's new home. They should be pretty weel established with their new family and getting out and about and being socialised by that age.

Crap, there are breeders more than capable of socialising pups and 12 weeks is not too old to be leaving home.

[kmaci]

There's an 8 month old dally advertised in the "Dogs for Sale" section without papers. Is this wrong too?

[Gayle.]

These breeders seem to do everything else right by my standards (vaccinate, worm and microchip puppies before rehoming, dont let them go until after 12 weeks, etc)

Papers aside, the breeders should also be doing health tests on the parents and providing proof. Vaccinating, worming and microchipping, while very commendable are often done by backyard breeders to establish "authenticity" as a breeder when they are anything but. Hips and elbow scores, eye tests, DNA testing etc, these are the tests that ethical breeders carry out on their breeding stock to ensure they aren't generating inheritable defects.

Also, 12 weeks is a little old for a puppy to be going to it's new home. They should be pretty weel established with their new family and getting out and about and being socialised by that age.

Crap, there are breeders more than capable of socialising pups and 12 weeks is not too old to be leaving home.

I'm sure there are plenty of breeders capable, but what's the advantage of keeping a puppy destined to be a pet until 12 weeks of age?

[poodlemum]

Totally agree with Gayle - I prefer my puppies to go to their new homes at 8 weeks. By that time they are house-trained and at the stage to bond to someone. I will keep them longer in some circumstances (where the buyer is unable to pick them up at 8 weeks, for instance) but 8 wekks is, to me, the optimum time.

To the OP, it is also mandatory in Vic that all puppies must be registered and sold with papers. I know some so-called "ethical" breeders sell puppies without papers, I would run a mile from them. Even though the majority of my puppies have gone to pet homes, they have always gone with papers.

[WreckitWhippet]

These breeders seem to do everything else right by my standards (vaccinate, worm and microchip puppies before rehoming, dont let them go until after 12 weeks, etc)

Papers aside, the breeders should also be doing health tests on the parents and providing proof. Vaccinating, worming and microchipping, while very commendable are often done by backyard breeders to establish "authenticity" as a breeder when they are anything but. Hips and elbow scores, eye tests, DNA testing etc, these are the tests that ethical breeders carry out on their breeding stock to ensure they aren't generating inheritable defects.

Also, 12 weeks is a little old for a puppy to be going to it's new home. They should be pretty weel established with their new family and getting out and about and being socialised by that age.

Crap, there are breeders more than capable of socialising pups and 12 weeks is not too old to be leaving home.

I'm sure there are plenty of breeders capable, but what's the advantage of keeping a puppy destined to be a pet until 12 weeks of age?

Desexing

Toy breeds that are very small are often better off until they grown a little

Vaccination protocol ( some choose one vacc at 12 weeks ) and choosing an option that is in the best interests of the puppy

[ellz]

Wow really!? We found that most people seem to charge an extra $200 for papers when we ask them how much.. huge rip off considering it costs so little to register a litter, thanks for the insight

You might find that the price difference isn't necessarily the papers themselves but perhaps the breeders' perceived difference in the quality of the puppy. For example a Main Registered puppy in some breeds going to a show home could be double that of a Limited Register puppy but the distinction is that sometimes a pet purchaser wants a Main Registered, show quality puppy as a companion only so the breeder charges them a Main Register, show puppy price.

Not everybody does this however. For my part, I keep what I register on Main, the rest are on Limit no matter what the quality so it is more than possible that a companion purchaser could get a show quality puppy on Limited Registration for a much lesser price.