Question For Owners Of Reactive Dogs

[huski]

I agree Skye especially with working breeds, reactivity is not necessarily a dog with issues, it's often just sharpness and civil drive which is expected and quite normal in working breeds and should be catered for more than it is. Providing the dog isn't reacting in fear and reacts in prey drive and social aggression, dogs like that are very trainable and need the reactivity knocked on the head and the owners taught how to handle them properly. I don't think behaviourists in those cases are what the dog needs and I have seen better results from K9 handlers/trainers working with owners of dogs to correct dominance type reactivity.

Or you go to a behaviourist who is also a qualified law enforcement dog handler

This is interesting because Loeka is a kelpie X. I've been wondering lately if this reactiveness could lead to aggression. I've decided to see the behaviourist again next month (I told her it's probably more for my sake than for the dog's - see how *I'm* doing as a trainer : ) but I wonder how can you tell if he's just being reactive with a sharp eye or if he's being fear/social aggressive? Are there any telltale signs? Is there anything a person could do to prevent reaction escalating into aggression?

Loeka (sorry I missed you at training tonight BTW - I was too sick to make it ) the chances that your dog is reacting out of the type of 'civil aggression' malsrock is referring too would likely be quite slim. The vast majority of aggressive dogs are fear aggressive, this is not so much about what the aggression looks like but also what triggers the aggression. Fear aggressive dogs for example will aggress towards unknown people/dogs/etc but will generally be fine with people/dogs/things they know.

ETA: The trainer/behaviourist you use also has a lot of experience with high drive working dogs so would definitely recognise the difference in types of aggression (although I am sure you know this! )

Edited August 30, 2010 by huski

[malsrock]

Given the cost and time it takes to equip yourself to handle such dogs successfully,the insurance and liability issues that attach to dealing with dog aggression and the volunteer basis of many dog clubs, I don't see a quick solution to the issue.

But isn't that what we try and do on this forum - give others the benefit of hindsight so we can try different things in order to counteract a potential problem? Isn't that why the books and DVD's are promoted as good learning tools? Even better if you can discuss your problem/s face-to-face with someone who has seen/heard/been in a similar situation just for a bit of reassurance. Instead, because it is becoming increasingly about user-pays, the dogs/handlers that have issues will be left to languish in the backyard compounding the problem.

That is a good summary of the situation I think you are correct Skye

[malsrock]

I agree Skye especially with working breeds, reactivity is not necessarily a dog with issues, it's often just sharpness and civil drive which is expected and quite normal in working breeds and should be catered for more than it is. Providing the dog isn't reacting in fear and reacts in prey drive and social aggression, dogs like that are very trainable and need the reactivity knocked on the head and the owners taught how to handle them properly. I don't think behaviourists in those cases are what the dog needs and I have seen better results from K9 handlers/trainers working with owners of dogs to correct dominance type reactivity.

Or you go to a behaviourist who is also a qualified law enforcement dog handler

This is interesting because Loeka is a kelpie X. I've been wondering lately if this reactiveness could lead to aggression. I've decided to see the behaviourist again next month (I told her it's probably more for my sake than for the dog's - see how *I'm* doing as a trainer : ) but I wonder how can you tell if he's just being reactive with a sharp eye or if he's being fear/social aggressive? Are there any telltale signs? Is there anything a person could do to prevent reaction escalating into aggression?

Loeka (sorry I missed you at training tonight BTW - I was too sick to make it ) the chances that your dog is reacting out of the type of 'civil aggression' malsrock is referring too would likely be quite slim. The vast majority of aggressive dogs are fear aggressive, this is not so much about what the aggression looks like but also what triggers the aggression. Fear aggressive dogs for example will aggress towards unknown people/dogs/etc but will generally be fine with people/dogs/things they know.

ETA: The trainer/behaviourist you use also has a lot of experience with high drive working dogs so would definitely recognise the difference in types of aggression (although I am sure you know this! )

That's a good general overview Huski I agree, but true fear aggression has a typical flight behaviour in their body language which happens prior to reaction. Social aggression I have found has a similar appearance in the reactive state, but what triggers the dog is anything outside of it's pack that doesn't belong generated by dominance in a territorial way. I think the importance which a behaviourist should be able to determine is what the reactivity is for a training plan to be formulated for the particular dog.

[loeka]

Loeka (sorry I missed you at training tonight BTW - I was too sick to make it ) the chances that your dog is reacting out of the type of 'civil aggression' malsrock is referring too would likely be quite slim. The vast majority of aggressive dogs are fear aggressive, this is not so much about what the aggression looks like but also what triggers the aggression. Fear aggressive dogs for example will aggress towards unknown people/dogs/etc but will generally be fine with people/dogs/things they know.

ETA: The trainer/behaviourist you use also has a lot of experience with high drive working dogs so would definitely recognise the difference in types of aggression (although I am sure you know this! )

No worries! I hope you feel better. I did keep my eyes open for a white and tan beagle : ) Next week is a brand new week!

I think, by the sounds of it, he is showing quite a bit of fear aggression. E.g. stranger at the gate = bark. Human with big floppy hat = bark. White mastiff-type dogs and boxers = bane of his life (I don't know why he seems to loathe those types). I still have so much to learn and I worry way too much about this dog. Well, it's definitely time to see her again then. And yes, she's fantastic. I'm looking forward to seeing her again.

[poodlefan]

That's a good general overview Huski I agree, but true fear aggression has a typical flight behaviour in their body language which happens prior to reaction. Social aggression I have found has a similar appearance in the reactive state, but what triggers the dog is anything outside of it's pack that doesn't belong generated by dominance in a territorial way. I think the importance which a behaviourist should be able to determine is what the reactivity is for a training plan to be formulated for the particular dog.

This is not an assumption I'd regard as a safe one.

Fear aggressive dogs may trigger straight to fighting without showing a single indicator of flight behaviour. A dog may have learned that flight is not an option or not a successful one. Have the dog onlead and many will know flight is not an option. Its the very unpredictability of the response that can make fear aggressive dogs some of the most challenging to deal with.

A notable dog trainer once commented that if as much time and effort went into managing aggressive dogs as went into trying to analyse WHY they aggress, then there'd be far fewer dangerous dogs around. I'm inclined to agree.

Bottom line is most handlers don't care as much about why their dogs bite as stopping it. The right professional will focus on that.

Oh and once a dog has escalating to drawing blood on people or other animals, I think the term "reactive" needs to be dropped in favour of what the dog is - aggressive.

[huski]

No worries! I hope you feel better. I did keep my eyes open for a white and tan beagle : ) Next week is a brand new week!

I think, by the sounds of it, he is showing quite a bit of fear aggression. E.g. stranger at the gate = bark. Human with big floppy hat = bark. White mastiff-type dogs and boxers = bane of his life (I don't know why he seems to loathe those types). I still have so much to learn and I worry way too much about this dog. Well, it's definitely time to see her again then. And yes, she's fantastic. I'm looking forward to seeing her again.

I am constantly worrying about my dog!! Just ask Jane next time you see her I am a basket case when it comes to nerves and worry LOL

[malsrock]

That's a good general overview Huski I agree, but true fear aggression has a typical flight behaviour in their body language which happens prior to reaction. Social aggression I have found has a similar appearance in the reactive state, but what triggers the dog is anything outside of it's pack that doesn't belong generated by dominance in a territorial way. I think the importance which a behaviourist should be able to determine is what the reactivity is for a training plan to be formulated for the particular dog.

This is not an assumption I'd regard as a safe one.

Fear aggressive dogs may trigger straight to fighting without showing a single indicator of flight behaviour. A dog may have learned that flight is not an option or not a successful one. Have the dog onlead and many will know flight is not an option. Its the very unpredictability of the response that can make fear aggressive dogs some of the most challenging to deal with.

A notable dog trainer once commented that if as much time and effort went into managing aggressive dogs as went into trying to analyse WHY they aggress, then there'd be far fewer dangerous dogs around. I'm inclined to agree.

Bottom line is most handlers don't care as much about why their dogs bite as stopping it. The right professional will focus on that.

Oh and once a dog has escalating to drawing blood on people or other animals, I think the term "reactive" needs to be dropped in favour of what the dog is - aggressive.

I understand your point of view, but what in that case has determined fear aggression and not aggression generated by social dominance???. If a dogs jumps straight into defence drive with a low threshold to reactivity...........how is a dog displaying this behaviour diagnosed as being fear aggressive???.

[poodlefan]

I understand your point of view, but what in that case has determined fear aggression and not aggression generated by social dominance???. If a dogs jumps straight into defence drive with a low threshold to reactivity...........how is a dog displaying this behaviour diagnosed as being fear aggressive???.

I'd imagine by careful observation from an experienced professional who takes a comprehensive history of the dog.

Fear aggression is lack of social confidence. I'd imagine that the body language of the dog would be quite different in fearful dog than a dominant one. What might not differ is their reaction to a trigger to aggression. Stick your hand in the dog's face and either might bite.

Edited August 30, 2010 by poodlefan

[malsrock]

I understand your point of view, but what in that case has determined fear aggression and not aggression generated by social dominance???. If a dogs jumps straight into defence drive with a low threshold to reactivity...........how is a dog displaying this behaviour diagnosed as being fear aggressive???.

I'd imagine by careful observation from an experienced professional who takes a comprehensive history of the dog.

Fear aggression is lack of social confidence. I'd imagine that the body language of the dog would be quite different in fearful dog than a dominant one. What might not differ is their reaction to a trigger to aggression. Either might bite.

Yes, I think that is the only sure way of determining the situation and is extremely important to have an accurate diagnosis of aggressive behaviour to arrive at the best methods to rehabilitate the dog.

[huski]

I understand your point of view, but what in that case has determined fear aggression and not aggression generated by social dominance???. If a dogs jumps straight into defence drive with a low threshold to reactivity...........how is a dog displaying this behaviour diagnosed as being fear aggressive???.

I'd imagine by careful observation from an experienced professional who takes a comprehensive history of the dog.

Fear aggression is lack of social confidence. I'd imagine that the body language of the dog would be quite different in fearful dog than a dominant one. What might not differ is their reaction to a trigger to aggression. Stick your hand in the dog's face and either might bite.

And if you ask any reputable behaviourist or trainer they will agree that it's only a very small percentage of aggressive dogs who are not fear aggressive... somewhere like 90% of aggression is fear based.

[loeka]

Fear aggression is lack of social confidence.

When you break it down like that, it makes so much more sense to me.

So what are some ways of building social confidence? I'm just curious - I will wait until my behaviourist "diagnoses" the dog further before trying out various exercises.

[malsrock]

I understand your point of view, but what in that case has determined fear aggression and not aggression generated by social dominance???. If a dogs jumps straight into defence drive with a low threshold to reactivity...........how is a dog displaying this behaviour diagnosed as being fear aggressive???.

I'd imagine by careful observation from an experienced professional who takes a comprehensive history of the dog.

Fear aggression is lack of social confidence. I'd imagine that the body language of the dog would be quite different in fearful dog than a dominant one. What might not differ is their reaction to a trigger to aggression. Stick your hand in the dog's face and either might bite.

And if you ask any reputable behaviourist or trainer they will agree that it's only a very small percentage of aggressive dogs who are not fear aggressive... somewhere like 90% of aggression is fear based.

I think if we really disected aggression down completely, even dominance aggression is triggered by the fear of loosing so we could probably say that all aggression 100% of it is fear based to some extent. Although aggression is a complex issue, but personally, I think we often use the term fear aggression far too loosely and doesn't always describe aggressive reactions correctly. A genuine fear aggressive dog IMHO is a nervous and submissive dog that is essentially a coward, has limited courage and reacts aggressively in fear of it's life when unable to flee. An example could be a dog that is petrified to get in a car who bites the owner in a state of panic as the owner tries to man handle him/her in. That to me is classical fear aggression???.

A dog that has the courage and chooses to engage a fight where the option to run away exists, is not fear aggression in the true definition I don't think???.

Dogs that have a low threshold to reacting aggressively towards a real or imagined threat they call "sharpness" in working dog terms. The same dog could also be diagnosed as fear aggressive, but if the dog has the courage to engage a fight, is called "civil aggression" which are essential traits sought after for training dogs in K9 security work. We could say that a dog with security/protection work potential is ultimately just a fear biter, but is that the correct diagnosis of those traits and that type of behaviour

Perhaps if it is all fear based aggression, there would be a major difference in the way a training regime is applied to correct the dog that bites in panic getting into the car and the dog that reacts aggressively towards strange people or other dogs???

Fiona

Edited August 30, 2010 by malsrock

[Staranais]

I think if we really disected aggression down completely, even dominance aggression is triggered by the fear of loosing so we could probably say that all aggression 100% of it is fear based to some extent.

I have heard that theory before, but don't believe it either.

I have seen predatory aggression displayed towards other dogs, & have seen redirected aggression displayed towards other dogs, IMO neither of these things are at all fear based.

I'll give you an example. Many, many moons ago I was at a dog club with my old boy. We were training down stays, and he was in a beautiful down stay, but getting more & more frustrated & loading higher & higher in prey drive as the instructor tempted the dogs to break by teasing them with balls and toys as a "distraction". We eventually released the dogs from their stays, but were told not to reward them with the toys (don't ask!). After being released, a lovely, gentle golden retriever walked past my dog completely ignoring him, and he immediately & cheerfully jumped on her, seized her by the throat, & happily started shaking her like a squeaky toy.

We all did things horribly wrong in that scenario - myself, the instructor, the owner of the other dog - looking back with what I know now, that is blindingly obvious to me. But my point is there was no fear there. None at all. Just frustrated prey drive. When we separated the dogs, my boy was wiggling and barking just like he'd been interrupted from an exciting game of tug.

Ever since that day, I've been very skeptical of behaviourists who tell me that all aggression is really fear.

Incidentally, that was the dog whose aggression got much worse with the advice given at the training club. He is also the dog who achieved his CGC and won two on-leash obedience competitions later in his life, after we found a much more appropriate training program to use.

[huski]

A dog that has the courage and chooses to engage a fight where the option to run away exists, is not fear aggression in the true definition I don't think???.

Dogs that have a low threshold to reacting aggressively towards a real or imagined threat they call "sharpness" in working dog terms. The same dog could also be diagnosed as fear aggressive, but if the dog has the courage to engage a fight, is called "civil aggression" which are essential traits sought after for training dogs in K9 security work. We could say that a dog with security/protection work potential is ultimately just a fear biter, but is that the correct diagnosis of those traits and that type of behaviour

I agree with everything Staranais has said but to give another example...

I have seen many fear aggressive dogs choose to exhibit aggression when they could just high tail it out of there. My own dog is one of these. He learnt that aggression is the appropriate and best reaction in a situation driven by fear... there are a huge range of reasons that can lead a dog toward thinking aggression is the way to win.

Talk to any reputable security/PP/police dog trainer and they will tell you there is a HUGE difference between fear based aggression and the kind of confident aggression that you should see exhibited in a working dog. The two are poles apart and it quite honestly scares me to think you consider them the same thing

[poodlefan]

Dogs display aggression for a reason - it works for them.

Aggression can be a learned response, reinforced by the reaction of the handler and the object of aggression. I'd rate on lead aggression as one classic example.

If a fear aggressive dog rushes to the end of the lead and barks furiously at what it fears AND that produces the desired result (the threat departs or the handler retreats from the threat) then it will react aggressively more often.

Loeka, what a lot behaviourists would do (I think) is discover the trigger point/distance for the aggressive display and work on raising the threshold at which the behaviour occurs, often through a process of desensitisation and reinforcement of the desired (rather than aggressive) response.

However this is where the expertise comes in. There are a range of possible ways of dealing with fear based aggression and of building social confidence. Clearly ensuring that no encounter with the object of fear goes badly and keeping the dog feeling safe are a start.

Once of my dogs was used by Susan Clothier when she was in Australia to demonstrate reducing on lead aggression in a dog. My boy is non-reactive and downright disinterested in other dogs.. very unthreatening. We walked to and fro passing the other dog (also walking on lead) outside the trigger distance. Then the distance was reduced and the the reactive dog rewarded for focus on the handler and ignoring the my dog. But that was just one small process that could be used to lower the other dog's reactivity.

In short, building trust and focus in the handler and ensuring that the dog did not have negative experience (and this takes time) can assist in MANAGING the issue. However never forget that the dog may still be triggered by situations it has not been desensitised to. The best way to ensure your dog's behaviour doesn't escalate is to keep it safe. Sadly, other dog owners are probably your worst problem in this regard.

Edited August 30, 2010 by poodlefan

[Souff]

I know this is a really dumb question......but can someone define "reactive dogs" for me? Sorry to be a pain, but I am still learning all the terms and jargon.

Thanks

That depends who you talk to. Lately it has been common for people to describe aggressive dogs specifically as reactive, while others use it to describe any dog who barks, lunges and generally gets highly aroused by a certain stimuli, whether it be out of aggression or not.

Terranik,

I was afraid the answer to Whippetsmum's question would be just as you have said.

Are dog owners now resorting to an "Emperor-has-no-Clothes" attitude by calling aggressive dogs something else ??????

Geez, every dog is "reactive" to some degree!

If a dog is not "reactive" it is DEAD!

Souff

[loeka]

I'll give you an example. Many, many moons ago I was at a dog club with my old boy. We were training down stays, and he was in a beautiful down stay, but getting more & more frustrated & loading higher & higher in prey drive as the instructor tempted the dogs to break by teasing them with balls and toys as a "distraction". We eventually released the dogs from their stays, but were told not to reward them with the toys (don't ask!). After being released, a lovely, gentle golden retriever walked past my dog completely ignoring him, and he immediately & cheerfully jumped on her, seized her by the throat, & happily started shaking her like a squeaky toy.

That's an interesting story because it kind of describes Loeka's reaction at times. But I'm not experienced enough to tell the difference between these different types of behaviour. I wish I could record him during training/walks/home.

Dogs display aggression for a reason - it works for them.

Aggression can be a learned response, reinforced by the reaction of the handler and the object of aggression. I'd rate on lead aggression as one classic example.

If a fear aggressive dog rushes to the end of the lead and barks furiously at what it fears AND that produces the desired result (the threat departs or the handler retreats from the threat) then it will react aggressively more often.

Loeka, what a lot behaviourists would do (I think) is discover the trigger point/distance for the aggressive display and work on raising the threshold at which the behaviour occurs, often through a process of desensitisation and reinforcement of the desired (rather than aggressive) response.

However this is where the expertise comes in. There are a range of possible ways of dealing with fear based aggression and of building social confidence. Clearly ensuring that no encounter with the object of fear goes badly and keeping the dog feeling safe are a start.

Once of my dogs was used by Susan Clothier when she was in Australia to demonstrate reducing on lead aggression in a dog. My boy is non-reactive and downright disinterested in other dogs.. very unthreatening. We walked to and fro passing the other dog (also walking on lead) outside the trigger distance. Then the distance was reduced and the the reactive dog rewarded for focus on the handler and ignoring the my dog. But that was just one small process that could be used to lower the other dog's reactivity.

In short, building trust and focus in the handler and ensuring that the dog did not have negative experience (and this takes time) can assist in MANAGING the issue. However never forget that the dog may still be triggered by situations it has not been desensitised to. The best way to ensure your dog's behaviour doesn't escalate is to keep it safe. Sadly, other dog owners are probably your worst problem in this regard.

Thanks for the reply! Right now, I am absolutely concentrating on building his trust in me and working on his focus on me. There has been progress but it's still a long way to go. Prevention is also key - keeping distance from dogs/people, really getting him to focus on me before he even sees the other dog, turning around and walking away... But there are still reactions, even when I think his focus is completely on me. (For example, during training, he might all of a sudden bark or lunge after a dog he was oblivious to before) It's very frustrating and it makes me anxious at times.

Do reactive dogs get better over time? I hope to one day go into agility/flyball so I really hope so : P

As for dog owners, I think most *humans* are my problem ; ) I tell people who come to my house: ignore the dog, let *him* come to *you*, don't let him jump on you, don't let him nudge you for attention etc. I had an incident happen a few weeks ago where a friend of a friend (so in other words, a stranger) try to alpha roll my dog because he had "seen it on Cesar Milan". I was absolutely fuming - I still think about that and get angry about it. The reason why? Because he was playing with his best friend, a beagle, and they play quite rough and the guy thought it was too much?!

[poodlefan]

Loeka:

Do reactive dogs get better over time? I hope to one day go into agility/flyball so I really hope so : P

How old is your dog? The very unhelpful answer is "sometimes" but maturity helped my dog somewhat.

I had an incident happen a few weeks ago where a friend of a friend (so in other words, a stranger) try to alpha roll my dog because he had "seen it on Cesar Milan". I was absolutely fuming - I still think about that and get angry about it.

My blood pressure is rising just thinking about it.

Edited August 30, 2010 by poodlefan

[loeka]

How old is your dog? The very unhelpful answer is "sometimes" but maturity helped my dog somewhat.

Good question. He's nearly 11 months.

[poodlefan]

How old is your dog? The very unhelpful answer is "sometimes" but maturity helped my dog somewhat.

Good question. He's nearly 11 months.

With the right management/advice, I'd expect improvement over the next 18 months or so. Good that he's young!

My reactive boy would run at a dog snap and keep snapping and growling as a youngster. Now he avoids confrontation, gives a full display of teeth as a warning or if he can't avoid the dog just snaps once and stops for the most part. That's part due to excellent behavioural advice on how to manage him, part desexing (I think) and part maturity. He's now 7.

Edited August 31, 2010 by poodlefan