Question For Owners Of Reactive Dogs

[poodlefan]

Unfortunately poodlefan that does not mean you won't have problems

I took Zoe to classes from the time I got her (puppy classes, then obedience from 4 months) - she still developed aggression problems.

You're right. It doesn't. But it sure lessens the chances of the dog developing unwanted ingrained behaviours (eg leash pulling) AND means that issues requiring professional help are likely to be identified (and hopefully acted on) far earlier.

[Staranais]

* Few training club instructors have the necessary skills and experience to deal with the issue. Its really a job for a professional and most clubs are savvy enough to know that. As I've said a few times in the last week or so, the skills required to teach manners and basic obedience and those required to analyse and provide behaviour modification are not one and the same.

Agree 100%. You can be a fantastic obedience or agility or basic manners trainer without having any idea how to manage aggression or reactivity.

IMO a good club will ideally have a relationship with a good local professional behaviourist (or behaviourists) to refer problem dogs to, and also have a policy about when & how owners of problem dogs are referred (so trainers are all on the same page, and so the odd overconfident volunteer trainer doesn't take it upon themselves to give advice).

ETA: I have been given some useless, and even dangerous, advice from well meaning volunteer instructors before regarding my old seriously DA dog.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Staranais

[Skye GSD]

Unfortunately poodlefan that does not mean you won't have problems

I took Zoe to classes from the time I got her (puppy classes, then obedience from 4 months) - she still developed aggression problems.

You're right. It doesn't. But it sure lessens the chances of the dog developing unwanted ingrained behaviours (eg leash pulling) AND means that issues requiring professional help are likely to be identified (and hopefully acted on) far earlier.

I also took Skye to puppy classes and then obedience - we are still reactive but I have no doubt that I will end up with one helluva good dog given time - it is just frustrating that everyone points people in the direction of behavourists when not everyone can afford it. Don't get me wrong, I have no objection to behavourists/personal trainers and will gladly pay the fees but some people who come on these forums do not have the extra $200+ which is why we need to have people at a club level who will help them inclusive of their club fees and without prejudice.

[Kavik]

My problem is that I tried to deal with it at club level for too long - until it became a REAL problem that has never really been totally fixed

She has improved heaps but she will never be OK to meet strange dogs on the street and if I had my time over I would have done so many things differently.

[Diva]

I also took Skye to puppy classes and then obedience - we are still reactive but I have no doubt that I will end up with one helluva good dog given time - it is just frustrating that everyone points people in the direction of behavourists when not everyone can afford it. Don't get me wrong, I have no objection to behavourists/personal trainers and will gladly pay the fees but some people who come on these forums do not have the extra $200+ which is why we need to have people at a club level who will help them inclusive of their club fees and without prejudice.

I agree totally with the 'without predjudice' bit. An instructor judging someone by the way their dog reacts really annoys me.

But I am not sure it's likely we will get back to a situation where community based clubs will generally have the skills or inclination to deal with the very reactive dogs. The nature of clubs has changed over the years I have been a part of them to be much more focussed on the 80% of people who just want to learn how to get their dog to walk on a loose leash so they can be walked with pleasure, be calm inside so they don't get left outside by themselves and get bored, and maybe join a sport like agility for some extra stimulation and fun.

The more 'behavioural' stuff, often along with the more competitive hard-core obedience, seems to have been 'out-sourced' to the private sector, for all the reasons pf mentions. Often the commercial trainers/behaviouralists aren't much more qualified themsleves, so the trick is finding the good ones. And affording it. And then getting to wherever the good ones are based. The very pet-based cirricula of the community clubs doesn't really suit me, but I think it's here to stay. I wish there were more accessible and affordable options to fill the gaps though. Maybe they will come. Or maybe it's just the Canberra scene, I do see only a narrow slice of what's going on.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Diva

[Skye GSD]

My problem is that I tried to deal with it at club level for too long - until it became a REAL problem that has never really been totally fixed

She has improved heaps but she will never be OK to meet strange dogs on the street and if I had my time over I would have done so many things differently.

Kavik - I am really interested in your issues with Zoe - what methods did you use and what would you have done differently?

[poodlefan]

Don't get me wrong, I have no objection to behavourists/personal trainers and will gladly pay the fees but some people who come on these forums do not have the extra $200+ which is why we need to have people at a club level who will help them inclusive of their club fees and without prejudice.

Given the cost and time it takes to equip yourself to handle such dogs successfully,the insurance and liability issues that attach to dealing with dog aggression and the volunteer basis of many dog clubs, I don't see a quick solution to the issue.

I'd like to think that dog owners might spend $200 on their own dogs. I appreciate that not everyone has the money to spend but if sufficiently interested, most people might find it. The challenge is convincing folk that its a good investment IMO.

[Kavik]

My problem is that I tried to deal with it at club level for too long - until it became a REAL problem that has never really been totally fixed

She has improved heaps but she will never be OK to meet strange dogs on the street and if I had my time over I would have done so many things differently.

Kavik - I am really interested in your issues with Zoe - what methods did you use and what would you have done differently?

What I have found to help is using methods from the book Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog. Clicker training attention and looking at the other dog, then looking at me. This has calmed her down considerably, but I still have to be aware and in position as if a dog takes us by surprise she will still react. But if I can give her enough space we can have another dog pass us without her reacting.

What I tried previously are more conventional methods - from luring with food, calling her name to get her attention, walking dog past dog in obedience etc to corrections for reacting.

[Kavik]

What I would have done differently:

Not take her to off lead parks

Not take her to puppy classes

More careful and controlled socialisation with calmer older dogs

[Skye GSD]

What I would have done differently:

Not take her to off lead parks

Not take her to puppy classes

More careful and controlled socialisation with calmer older dogs

Thanks for that - agree with you 100%.

[huski]

Totally agree with Diva and PF.

IMO, there is a HUGE difference between training a dog to do things like obedience and working with a dog who has a behaviourial problem. It's easy to make a behaviourial problem worse and whilst club instructors should have some knowledge unless they are qualified behaviourists with many years of experience working with dogs with behaviourial problems they really don't the knowledge nor skills to train dogs with those issues.

[Skye GSD]

Given the cost and time it takes to equip yourself to handle such dogs successfully,the insurance and liability issues that attach to dealing with dog aggression and the volunteer basis of many dog clubs, I don't see a quick solution to the issue.

But isn't that what we try and do on this forum - give others the benefit of hindsight so we can try different things in order to counteract a potential problem? Isn't that why the books and DVD's are promoted as good learning tools? Even better if you can discuss your problem/s face-to-face with someone who has seen/heard/been in a similar situation just for a bit of reassurance. Instead, because it is becoming increasingly about user-pays, the dogs/handlers that have issues will be left to languish in the backyard compounding the problem.

[Monah]

Behaviourists are an excellent investment and in the scheme of things, not expensive at all. I dont really see how you could have people like that at every club and also most dogs dont need it. I'm very happy with the experiences I've had with behaviourists.

I have found another place to go to agility and it's great The first thing she said as a person turned up with a CHOKER was, I dont use chokers here but can lend you a collar the guy was a bit put out but they had a chat about why etc. and he was happy.

the local kennel club is OK, a little antiquated though. The issue I had was that it is treated as a socialisation time with humans and dogs chatting , playing during the hour. That's great if your dog enjoys that, but if it doesn't, you are left right out of things and treated like a pariah and also never know if someone is going to come over to talk, with crazy puppy in tow :D :D

WHere I go now, she says straight up, some dogs may not appreciate meeting yours and so on, and no one is made to feel like they have a revolting dog and no pressure to 'join in and play'. It's such a relief to know that no one is going to think they can play with us, I dont have to be 'on guard' etc. and can relax and enjoy training.

There are several reactive dogs going there, none what I'd call aggressive.

Monah has been great, she focusses on her 'work' and loves it and we have a ball. She likes one or two dogs and they have quick hellos as we leave. She has never attacked or lunged etc at a dog anyway. ;) but can be nervy.

[huski]

But isn't that what we try and do on this forum - give others the benefit of hindsight so we can try different things in order to counteract a potential problem? Isn't that why the books and DVD's are promoted as good learning tools? Even better if you can discuss your problem/s face-to-face with someone who has seen/heard/been in a similar situation just for a bit of reassurance. Instead, because it is becoming increasingly about user-pays, the dogs/handlers that have issues will be left to languish in the backyard compounding the problem.

But, very VERY few instructors at clubs (talking generally) have had experience with aggressive dogs and know how to fix it properly.

I would never give advice on an aggressive dog apart from - go see someone who is qualified to deal with it. It's far too dangerous an issue to stuff around with if you don't know what you are doing. And I have seen instructors who THINK they know what they are doing make a problem much worse.

[Staranais]

But isn't that what we try and do on this forum - give others the benefit of hindsight so we can try different things in order to counteract a potential problem? Isn't that why the books and DVD's are promoted as good learning tools? Even better if you can discuss your problem/s face-to-face with someone who has seen/heard/been in a similar situation just for a bit of reassurance. Instead, because it is becoming increasingly about user-pays, the dogs/handlers that have issues will be left to languish in the backyard compounding the problem.

I see your point - it can be very frustrated to just be told "see a behaviourist!" when you are looking for information, especially if money is tight for you, or you've already seen a behaviourist already & had no success.

But aggression is a complicated subject, and what works for one dog won't necessarily work for another. It's not as simple as deciding that X worked for your aggressive dog, so it will work for all aggressive dogs. Dogs can be aggressive for lots of reasons, and what works to "fix" one won't necessarily work for another, may even make it worse. So giving advice if you're not very qualified or experienced can be dodgy.

And the consequences of giving bad advice about aggression can be really bad. It can make the dog's behaviour worse (like Kavik, I have had this happen to me, the well meaning advice given to me at a volunteer run club made my dog's aggressive behaviour worse). Giving poor advice about aggression can also result in a dog or human getting hurt or injured. What happens if a volunteer instructor at a dog club gives poor advice about an aggressive dog, and it then bites the family's child in the face, or kills another dog at the dog park?

Edited August 30, 2010 by Staranais

[malsrock]

My mally is a bit like that, Fiona, she is not at all fearful, but is very alert and very sensitive and spins up very quickly in response to just about anything going on in the environment. She's about 14 months old now and has gotten a lot better behaved over the last few months - I suspect a combination of her just growing up, and me putting my foot down & introducing some consequences for acting like a spaz.

I have taken her to training class before but we've never signed up for a class, we just do our exercises around the edge of the field using the other dogs as a distraction (loose leash walking, stays, drive & focus). As long as you don't disturb the class, most clubs are fine with that.

Yes, my Mali boy is "exactly" as you have described Staranais I had always previously trained with check chains and negative reinforcement with good results, but I promised this boy I would get with the times and train with positive motivation and reward and have only used a flat collar which has tested me a bit. I am enjoying the responses I have received training in drive and when he's playing up at his worse, pull the ball out and get lightning sits and drops and the behaviour I am looking for which has been amazing learning curve how this all works

Training on the sidelines in distractive atmosheres is excellent I think and I have had good results with my boy wanting to chase other dogs and getting himself all ramped up over it.

Fiona

[poodlefan]

Given the cost and time it takes to equip yourself to handle such dogs successfully,the insurance and liability issues that attach to dealing with dog aggression and the volunteer basis of many dog clubs, I don't see a quick solution to the issue.

But isn't that what we try and do on this forum - give others the benefit of hindsight so we can try different things in order to counteract a potential problem? Isn't that why the books and DVD's are promoted as good learning tools? Even better if you can discuss your problem/s face-to-face with someone who has seen/heard/been in a similar situation just for a bit of reassurance. Instead, because it is becoming increasingly about user-pays, the dogs/handlers that have issues will be left to languish in the backyard compounding the problem.

The dogs and handlers having the issues don't need to languish in the backyard IF they are prepared to look hard for answers. If the issue doesn't present a danger to the dog, other animals or other people then some training clubs may be able to help.

When aggression is factored in those answers are going to be found more often than not by asking people with the qualifications, experience and insurance cover that allows them to deal with animals that have the potential to harm the trainer, the handler, other people and/or other animals. You won't find too many of those volunteering down the local dog club but it can happen.

"User pays" can also be interpreted as "you get what you pay for". In terms of SUCCESS in dealing with aggression or other serious behavioural issues you can waste a lot of time, a lot of heart ache, potential harm to others and potentially your dog's life looking for cheap solutions to complex behavioural issues.

Most decent behaviouralists I know will find a way to help a person in financial difficulty deal with a challenging dog.

However, I think it bears to keep in mind that seriously dangerous dogs are more made than born. Good socialisation and ongoing training can help. One thing about going to training is the a trainer may be able to spot emerging issues and recommend professonal help sooner rather than later. Getting help early can not only save money but potentially prevent a serious incident. Dealing with a reactive youngster sure beats having to find help for a dog with a serious bite history.

But its never going to be cheap getting help for challenging dogs. If they were easy to fix, then almost any trainer could help. No book or DVD, no amount of help on an internet forum can take the place of an experienced person for such dogs.

Edited August 30, 2010 by poodlefan

[malsrock]

Unfortunately poodlefan that does not mean you won't have problems

I took Zoe to classes from the time I got her (puppy classes, then obedience from 4 months) - she still developed aggression problems.

You're right. It doesn't. But it sure lessens the chances of the dog developing unwanted ingrained behaviours (eg leash pulling) AND means that issues requiring professional help are likely to be identified (and hopefully acted on) far earlier.

I also took Skye to puppy classes and then obedience - we are still reactive but I have no doubt that I will end up with one helluva good dog given time - it is just frustrating that everyone points people in the direction of behavourists when not everyone can afford it. Don't get me wrong, I have no objection to behavourists/personal trainers and will gladly pay the fees but some people who come on these forums do not have the extra $200+ which is why we need to have people at a club level who will help them inclusive of their club fees and without prejudice.

I agree Skye especially with working breeds, reactivity is not necessarily a dog with issues, it's often just sharpness and civil drive which is expected and quite normal in working breeds and should be catered for more than it is. Providing the dog isn't reacting in fear and reacts in prey drive and social aggression, dogs like that are very trainable and need the reactivity knocked on the head and the owners taught how to handle them properly. I don't think behaviourists in those cases are what the dog needs and I have seen better results from K9 handlers/trainers working with owners of dogs to correct dominance type reactivity.

[loeka]

I agree Skye especially with working breeds, reactivity is not necessarily a dog with issues, it's often just sharpness and civil drive which is expected and quite normal in working breeds and should be catered for more than it is. Providing the dog isn't reacting in fear and reacts in prey drive and social aggression, dogs like that are very trainable and need the reactivity knocked on the head and the owners taught how to handle them properly. I don't think behaviourists in those cases are what the dog needs and I have seen better results from K9 handlers/trainers working with owners of dogs to correct dominance type reactivity.

This is interesting because Loeka is a kelpie X. I've been wondering lately if this reactiveness could lead to aggression. I've decided to see the behaviourist again next month (I told her it's probably more for my sake than for the dog's - see how *I'm* doing as a trainer : ) but I wonder how can you tell if he's just being reactive with a sharp eye or if he's being fear/social aggressive? Are there any telltale signs? Is there anything a person could do to prevent reaction escalating into aggression?

[malsrock]

My problem is that I tried to deal with it at club level for too long - until it became a REAL problem that has never really been totally fixed

She has improved heaps but she will never be OK to meet strange dogs on the street and if I had my time over I would have done so many things differently.

Kavik - I am really interested in your issues with Zoe - what methods did you use and what would you have done differently?

What does your dog actually do Skye???. Does she jump around and misbehave or bark and lunge aggressively at strangers or other dogs when saying she is reactive???

Fiona