ellz Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 Personally, I would have to question the definition of puppy farmer before I would definitely label somebody as such. There are many breeders who appear to churn out a lot of litters, but to be honest, if you want to maintain a large breeding program, in some breeds this is necessary. Yes, there may be a wide gene pool, but when you have a wide gene pool, there is usually a lot of scum on the surface too. For my part, in the breed I have now, there are certainly a few breeders who I would avoid, but for the most part their dogs aren't what I would wish to include in my breeding program anyway so that is a good thing. A backyard breeder is another "definition" thing. But if they do right by their dogs (and puppy people), maintain a decent breeding program (in MY opinion because others would no doubt beg to differ), health test appropriately and do the right thing by me, I'd really have no reason NOT to use a dog owned by them if he was what was missing from my breeding program. And remember too that many of the larger, more established kennels in various breeds probably started out as "backyard breeders"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolassesLass Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 i'm finding this an interesting thread to read when in the past there have been threads saying people would ask their worst enemy if their stud dog was available if he was the best choice for their bitch For me, disliking a person is a different kettle of fish from thinking a person lacks ethics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted July 27, 2010 Author Share Posted July 27, 2010 They are registered breeders. They breed 1-3 litters a year. They do not seem to have a grasp on the breed standard. They are a bit redneckish, and a bit farm mentality in terms all stock has to be bred. Lines are what I want, compliment the bitch very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 Let's reverse it, if you owned a stud dog would you let someone who has upto three litters a year, who does not have a grasp on the breed standard, who believes that dogs are stock and and are there to be bred, use your stud dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted July 27, 2010 Author Share Posted July 27, 2010 Let's reverse it, if you owned a stud dog would you let someone who has upto three litters a year, who does not have a grasp on the breed standard, who believes that dogs are stock and and are there to be bred, use your stud dog. Warls you have changed your name again to confuse people. LOL that really got me thinking. It seems Hypocritical but no I would not let them use my dog at stud. I would not be able to control the way they were whelped/raised or the buyers they went to, or the after service that was given. I feel they lack the knowledge to do so, yet love the breed. I'm not sure if they are open to advice or a mentor so to speak. It could be a good chance to educate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 They are registered breeders.They breed 1-3 litters a year. They do not seem to have a grasp on the breed standard. They are a bit redneckish, and a bit farm mentality in terms all stock has to be bred. Lines are what I want, compliment the bitch very well. If they have managed to 'luck' into getting such a good dog you want to use, then yes I would use the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bokezu Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 If someone had a dog I really wanted to use, was registered and health tested appropriate for the breed, and I new some of the lines and could research the rest, then yes I would use that dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 Personally, I would have to question the definition of puppy farmer before I would definitely label somebody as such. There are many breeders who appear to churn out a lot of litters, but to be honest, if you want to maintain a large breeding program, in some breeds this is necessary. Yes, there may be a wide gene pool, but when you have a wide gene pool, there is usually a lot of scum on the surface too.For my part, in the breed I have now, there are certainly a few breeders who I would avoid, but for the most part their dogs aren't what I would wish to include in my breeding program anyway so that is a good thing. A backyard breeder is another "definition" thing. But if they do right by their dogs (and puppy people), maintain a decent breeding program (in MY opinion because others would no doubt beg to differ), health test appropriately and do the right thing by me, I'd really have no reason NOT to use a dog owned by them if he was what was missing from my breeding program. And remember too that many of the larger, more established kennels in various breeds probably started out as "backyard breeders"! Good post ellz. I agree with all you are saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelsun Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 I have a real life situation I"ll share. We have in Canada a puppy mill for my breed...they breed without testing and breed from bitches they have homed elsewhere. One year I know there was no less than ten litters on the ground, which included my breed and various others as well as cross breds. The sire of my dog ended up in their hands unfortunately via what we would call a byb. This person bred now and then, but never showed and in fact told me to my face that she could not pick a show dog because she didn't understand the breed standard well enough. She liked some agility and things like that but overall wasn't interested in conformation as such. She did register her dogs however, but did not health test. She decided to get out of the breed and this male that she had ended up in the Western Puppy mill. Just prior to him going there, I had enquired through a co owner of mine, to use this dog and this BYB who knew that he was sire to the only All Breed best in show winner, told us the following: Yes you can breed your bitch to him but you must bring her as I will not go pick her up at an airport nor drop her off when done. You can bring her one day only and you must give me the stud fee ($1000 when at the time the top dog was getting $650) in full that day. There are no guarantees the bitch will take, and no refunds or rematings. This male, as good as he produced was left untouched by us....he was a dog that was not titled as the breed wasn't recognized when he was a young lad and as a result he was only shown in the rare breed shows then. He produced some nice dogs with great temperaments but currently was being advertised as the sire of the BIS winning dog....and was attempting to ride on those laurals....he was NEVER used while in the care of that BYB person. Fast forward to when he landed in the hands of the puppy mill people. We knew he was there...our hands were tied as we knew we couldn't get him out of their barn. He needed special vet letters to be able to register dogs (because he was CKC registered whereas all but a handful of theirs were not and hence they could not sell dogs as registered which was what people wanted) A number of times we noticed ads in various magazines stating he was sire of my male....Once again, as good as this dog did produce, no one touched him....I don't know what their stud use agreement was, but I know what they sold his puppies for, and I know how many contacted me with their story because they had a half sibling of my dog and felt they had common ground....prices generally were twice what was the standard. The dog was untested and untitled because they said to anyone that would listen...firstly, they don't have to test as they don't have any problems in the breed, and secondly, the CKC were losers and they would not show. Funny part is, they have a photo of a group fourth win with one of their dogs before they were permanently removed from using ANYTHING the CKC did (banned for various reasons) on their website, so if the CKC were such losers, I'm wondering why they continued to brag about such a win? Anyway, the dog was never used outside their puppy farm and I can only hope he's gone over the bridge now as he would be a very old dog if he was still alive today. Over the time I had his son, I was approached by many that beleive (and rightfully so) if the son is good, go to the father if you can....I was honest about where the father lived and who to contact....NO ONE used this dog at any point in time....ever..... We have a relatively small genepool and at that time, prior to the swarm of imports from Europe, it was very small and a good sound dog that produced to the standard was really desired....regardless of this, the cost for us as breeders was too high if we had used this dog....we all knew, that this puppy farmer would advertise kennel X or Y as coming to THEM and aren't they amazing because of it...and holy cow if we had gotten a great winner..they would have capitolized on that.....none of us were prepared to give them the opportunity to profit or benefit in any form but using this dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverdog Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 ....we all knew, that this puppy farmer would advertise kennel X or Y as coming to THEM and aren't they amazing because of it...and holy cow if we had gotten a great winner..they would have capitolized on that.....none of us were prepared to give them the opportunity to profit or benefit in any form by using this dog. +1 Sums up perfectly my feelings on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseRed Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 They are registered breeders.They breed 1-3 litters a year. They do not seem to have a grasp on the breed standard. They are a bit redneckish, and a bit farm mentality in terms all stock has to be bred. Lines are what I want, compliment the bitch very well. It's a little hard to give a black or white answer. I think there is a lot of difference between a puppy farm and a BYB. To me a puppy farm is someboy that has quite a number of dogs, and breeds them as often as possible for the sole purpose of making money, and I can (straight off the bat) think of two within our breed. But I guess I could be considered a BYB ... I'm registered, but I don't show (anymore), but my bitch is from a nice line, is a nice example of the breed and I have bred her once, and might breed her once more in about 18 months, but that will probably be the limit of puppies I'll have from her. So personally I would think that using the stud you have in mind, is probably ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bokezu Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 They are registered breeders.They breed 1-3 litters a year. They do not seem to have a grasp on the breed standard. They are a bit redneckish, and a bit farm mentality in terms all stock has to be bred. Lines are what I want, compliment the bitch very well. lots of registered breeders out there like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted July 29, 2010 Author Share Posted July 29, 2010 Thanyou everyone for your replies. No need for further discussionas as the dog has not had any testing done and the owners are not interested in doing any. So not going there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andisa Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 Thanyou everyone for your replies.No need for further discussionas as the dog has not had any testing done and the owners are not interested in doing any. So not going there. That's a shame BB - but you can't reason with some people to do the right thing. I had a stud enquiry for Hamish (not advertised at stud) last weekend, on paper it would be a very nice mating but I will not be doing it. We have different views on ethics so I just won't go there - simply not worth it. Hopefully you will find a better dog soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulilover Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 If you saw advertised that this dog was available would you use it.???? NO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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