My Dog Is Under My Neighbour's House......

[Simply Grand]

As I said, this may not be the case for the OP. And as you noted, I did say that I believed charliehotel's comment was in a joking spirit.

I just think that people should not feel guilty about considering rehoming as an option. I am certainly not saying it should be an easy option, or that people should take on a pet thinking that they can rehome it at will. I do however think that life's circumstances can change and that people should not feel guilty about considering rehoming - to a suitable home. Sometimes it is the best scenario for ALL (human and animal) involved.

Again I reiterate - this may not be the case for charliehotel.

[Erny]

And Erny you actually do know us from a couple of years ago, you helped us with some one on one lessons and everything was going really well for a while........I always meant to get back to you to let you know how everything was going but I had a premature baby who had to have major surgery twice before she was a year old (I was pregnant when we had our lessons with you) and life has never been the same since!!!!

I've always regularly used the exercises you taught us to keep the pack leader structure in place, and when she's not under the house everything is fine...........but she just keeps going under there. This issue has been discussed at length with many people who know more about dogs than I ever will, and it comes back to the fact that I will probably never know why she's doing it. For whatever reason it is, some need in her is fulfilled by going under the house. The only thing I can think of is that maybe she's responding to being the lowest pack member - there's me, my partner and our little girl, then our other dog Donnie, and then Minna at the bottom. Donnie is getting old now (around 11 or 12, former rescue dog so no way of knowing exactly how old he is) and slowing down a lot, so Minna might not be getting the same level of interaction with him that she used to get, and sometimes it looks like she's trying to push him around. By going under the house and not coming out, maybe she's trying to control the other pack members??? I don't know.........

Ahhhh .... so this is Minna we're talking about! Sorry, CH .... I tend to forget which DOL names belong with whom. Minna, unless she's changed, is quite the "out there" sort of happy personality type dog. Strong, but a tendancy towards sensitivity and happy to give if she can work out easily enough what it is you want and if you can make it worth while.

If things are as they were when I last saw you (LOL .... except for the fact that baby is not where she was back then) over 2 years ago ( time flies!!) then no, this dog doesn't need rehoming.

To work out why she's nicking under the house and, more particularly and importantly, why she isn't coming out when you call her (and staying under there so long!) would need more questioning. One thing I wonder is whether she is ratting or mousing or lizarding under the house and obsession is keeping her away. That would need some observation to be able to determine.

I would think some kind of trellace or chicken wire (wouldn't look as good but would be cheaper) might be able to be constructed as a barrier to her getting underneath the house at all would at least be a management strategy to whatever is going on.

But hey .... it is good to hear from you. I'm glad you and baby are ok (I'm assuming you are, given that it is 2 years down the track) and hope that walks with babe in pram (which was what you were practicing for) is going ok.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Erny

[charliehotel]

Saxonpup, I'm not at all offended by the re-homing recommendation! To be completely honest, I've often thought that Minna would be better off in a different pack. I've never really 'bonded' with her like I have with other dogs that I've had, and 6 months of bashing my head against a wall with this behaviour certainly doesn't help our relationship. The sticking point is that no one (or at least, no one I've met lately) wants to take on a dog that has problems, and Minna has a problem that I can't deny to a future possible owner. If I ever met someone that liked Minna and could guarantee a safe, happy forever home for her, I'd let her go in a heart beat. Minna deserves love, and I'm all out of it for her. I really feel that I just go through the motions with her these days.......I mean, she gets well fed, well cared for, lots of exercise and attention, sleeps inside, etc etc, she's not physically neglected at all, she just doesn't get the love that she she might well get from someone else.........but I adopted her, she's my responsibility, so now we just have to make the best of it until she shuffles off to the rainbow bridge.

Erny, Minna has got through every barrier we've tried. Wooden lattice got chewed through in an afternoon, wooden planks lasted 2 days, chicken wire 2 days (still not entirely sure how she got through it, I think it was a combination of digging and chewing because there was enough blood to need a trip to the vet to check cuts) and weld mesh lasted about 4 days before she dug her way around that too. She just digs until she gets where she wants to go. There's no rats, mice, lizards or other vermin under the house, she just goes under there, digs herself a spot and stays there. She doesn't want a kennel, she doesn't want to stay inside the house, she just wants to go under the house. And for some people this might not be a problem, but for our house we have ducted heating and phone cables under there and she causes on going damage to both of them. A dog run would work as long as it had a concrete floor, but pricewise, an electric barrier system is cheaper so that's what we've ordered. Time will tell if she can get around that......

[Erny]

That's interesting, CH .... and to be honest, potentially a bit disconcerting, especially if she is so hell bent on getting there that she will even cause self-harm.

When did this behaviour begin? Perhaps you mentioned - but to save me going back through posts?

Also, does she have a preferred spot/place under the house? If so, what room would she be under?

Mind you .... my train of thought gets dashed by the fact that she exhibited this behaviour to your neighbour's home as well. But I'd still like to pursue it, all the same. Just in case.

[Erny]

Oh - OT but as an aside .... if you have ducted heating but the underneath of your home is exposed, you'd be losing quite a bit of heat through the ducts. If you can get around to closing it in at some stage I'm sure you'd find your heating to be more efficient and more economical.

[Nekhbet]

I thought too she might be hunting. Saving that, where was she raised? Did she come from a farm or backyard situation? Under the house may have been where she was raised and now she finds that the most comforting place to be.

I saw somewhere dog igloos you buried in the ground so the dog can 'den' like it would under a house etc. Maybe try something like that as well as the electric fence? Or make the entrance to the kennel smaller so its darker and more comfortable in there

[persephone]

I was going to suggest you build her a safe DEN in your yard ....

What sort of body language does she display normally, and inside, and in your yard, and then , when she is denned? Any photos... ?

[charliehotel]

Finally made it back again.........seems like I only get to use the computer on weekends these days!! Anyway, the behaviour started over the summer, so it's over 8 months now. It seemed to start not long after we got our house re-stumped. The dogs were kept in our neighbours yard while this was happening so they weren't actually there when the work was being done, and new plinth boards were put up all around the base of the house except around the small deck we have out the back. Both dogs used to go under the deck area in the summer as it's cool under there, and they liked to lie in the dirt. They weren't able to get any further under the house except under the deck area (hope I'm making sense here) and after the re-stumping was done they still weren't able to get further under the house, not until after Minna had started her campaign of doing whatever it took to get under.

Minna going further than the deck area started gradually, and to be honest it was probably going on for a while before I realised that she was going further under the house than the deck. It was probably around April that I realised what was going on, because at that stage she started digging out under the front of the house and getting out of the yard altogether. She'd take herself off to the park, visit neighbours, and almost get hit by cars. Did my head in. I'm not entirely sure why she stopped digging right out, but I think it might be due to her getting stuck under the plinth boards one time and not being able to get herself out. She might have been stuck there for a while because it happened when I was out at work. Anyway, after that she stopped digging all the way out, and would just stay under the house.

To get further under the house than the deck, she broke some of the plinth boards that were at the point where the deck is joined to the house (hard for me to find because it was under the deck, and bloody hard to fix because there's not much space under there) and after we fixed the boards, she just dug under them. So then we blocked in the deck so they couldn't get under at all, and after that Minna started digging anywhere along the house so that she could get under, and it all gradually got worse and worse until she would go under the house every day. We'd dog proof one spot, she'd either get through it or find another spot. She might stop doing it for a few days, then she'd start again.

Even if I was out in the back yard playing with the dogs, or just hanging out with them, one minute she'd be fine, then the next she'd just be trying to get under the house. There's no particular trigger than I can pick - it doesn't matter if my daughter is in the yard or not, or whether I'm paying more attention to Donnie (my other dog) for a moment, or whether we've done some training exercises. Doesn't matter what the weather is like, it's not triggered by loud noises, or by anything that the neighbours do. Body language wise, in the yard, inside and anywhere else (eg the park) she looks happy, confident, alert, not stressed or fearful or aggressive. When she's under the house, she ignores everyone (including Donnie). She won't respond to calls or commands or food treats. She turns her head away if she's in a position where she can see me. She doesn't have just one special place that she goes under the house, there's several spots she likes and it doesn't seem to correspond with anything in particular. I thought she might be trying to be under the room where I am when I'm inside but I don't think it's that as I'm on the move all the time and Minna stays put once she's under the house. She doesn't prefer one bedroom over another - she has a spot under the main bedroom, one under my daughter's bedroom, one under the lounge, and one under the kitchen. There's no one spot that is especially warmer than anywhere else, except for when she rips open one of the heating ducts and lets the hot air out!!!!!! And even then she doesn't like close to the hot air, she's never been a dog to get close to heat (unlike Donnie who pretty much started going under the house to get inside the hot air ducts after Minna broke them - he would live inside a heater if he could and makes himself a very cosy nest inside the ducts, at least someone is getting the warm air I suppose).

I've had Minna since she was 6 months old and she's now 4 1/2, so for a long time everything was okay in this regard. This all started after the re-stumping, so maybe it's stirred up something in her memory???? All I know from the shelter that I adopted her from is that she was an impulse buy from a pet shop and was pretty much left in a back yard and ignored until she was taken to the shelter. That's when I adopted her........and I now know I'll never ever get another rescue dog, after having rescue dogs all my life. This one has finished rescue dogs for me.

This has turned into an epic post!!! Time for me to stop rambling. The idea of a den sounds like it's worth a try. I'll have saved enough dollars by the end of the month to pay for the electric fence kit, so maybe between those two things we might get somewhere. Thanks for the ideas and advice, it's much appreciated. And if any of this background sheds some light on anything, please let me know!!

[Erny]

... she has a spot under the main bedroom, one under my daughter's bedroom, one under the lounge, and one under the kitchen.

All of these rooms are main living rooms. Perhaps it's too awkward for her to be under the bathroom, laundry, toilet or any other room you might have - but if not, don't discount the fact that she seems to be hovering under the mainstay rooms. Still follow your current plans and of course continue with the leadership. I wonder in part whether it has anything to do with your child/ren.

But beside the point - obviously your first endeavour is to manage the problem by prevention, seeing as other things appear to be in place, including exercise and mental stimulation.

[k9angel]

So overall how does she get along with your older boy Donnie?

As Donnie is getting older & doesnt want to play/interact with her as much, he might be somehow warning her to stay clear??? If youre not out there all the time youre not likely to see everything that's going on. He is getting on and slowing down and she IS in her prime. He may see her as a threat and she may fear him for some reason??? A dog only has to look at another dog a certain way to scare them off.

Yesterday my old girl had poor Luki bailed up in the kitchen. We were eating dinner in the loungeroom and I observed them carefully. Luki would not make eye contact and when he did Gypz would give him the eye (no growls or lip lifting) and he would turn around. No matter how much I called him he would not come. She would not hurt him but she is letting him know she is above him in the doggy pack rankings.

Next time youre out with them together and she is off the chain, observe their every move. Watch their body language and for any signs or eye contact from Donnie that may trigger her to run under the house.

[dogbesotted]

is it possible that your dog may have a sensitivity to light??????

H

[charliehotel]

K9 Angel, I do think that Minna's behaviour could be related to Donnie getting older. He's getting older and slowing down, and I think Minna might be trying to change her position in our pack. She's always been the lowest pack member, but is 7 years younger than Donnie so she's definitely still in her prime while he is moving towards old age. I've discussed this a lot with people who know much more about dogs than me, and one suggestion put to me was that by going under the house and not coming out for me, my partner, or for Donnie, Minna is trying to control the higher pack members. I don't think Donnie's trying to warn Minna off, more that he's just not as interested in playing all the time.

Dogbessotted, she doesn't have a sensitivity to light, but thanks for the suggestion.

Thanks everyone.....