Reactive (not Aggresive) Dogs

[Lucy's mama]

I have posted before about my 10 month old Aussie Shepherd who is just plain hard work. I am frustrated that I can pour time, effort, and love into him and only get minimal results. The money spent is not so much an issue to me, but my other half is really very very very unhappy (more angry actually) at the extra expense I am going to with him for training, behaviourists, training tools, and bordem busting toys.

All his training goes out the window the minute he is aroused - and he can go from zero to out of control in the blink of an eye. Yesterday he walked nicely with me and the two kids 2.5kms to an off lead area, did some off leash obedience work (I did lose him once but mostly all was good) I stopped at the first lagoon on the way back to give him a drink. One minute he is standing partially in the water drinking, the next second I have been dragged in. My son had thrown a mud ball, banjo heard or saw it splash and that was it. Then he wouldn't settle and tried several more times to take me swimming till I could drag him up the hill and away from the water. I had to walk all the way back freezing cold and dripping wet.

He knows perfectly well how to walk on a loose leash. He is doing very well at obedience class yet I still can't walk him down the street because he just will not stop lunging at other dogs. Martingale is useless. The correction just winds him up more, the harder the corection, the more wound up he gets.

I've tried getting slowly closer to the dogs that wind him up while treating him for not reacting. but if we are far enough away that he is not reactive then the dogs in the yard aren't out at the front fences barking and running which is what winds him up. Walking past calm dogs is fine. It's all the dogs fence running and barking that he has problems with.

I try to look on the bright side at the headway we have made - he knows how to walk on a loose leash, his obedience is coming along really really well. He listens to commands around the house more, he has been better with the kids, I can recall him from things he finds intertesting enough to bark at at home.

He is scared of things easily so I am wary of using harsher corrections. The last contact I had with his breeder she suggested I wack his rump with a big stick when he glares at the cat. I really can't see that ending well especially with his temperament. Even touching him sets him off lunging at the cat once he has his focus on him (The other cat he is friends with) My other half would love to give the big stick idea a go but I refuse. She also asked that I take him to a chiropractor just to make sure every thing is o.k in that respect which I will do.

It is hard to explain but his personality is great and his temperament sucks. It is like he has a gorgeous, happy, loving personality, but a reactive temperament, sometimes very confident and sometimes very timid if that makes any sense?

I have worked and worked and socialized and socialized to try and make him grow into the best dog he can be, but I swear to god, sometimes people meet him and think he has zero training and probably hasn't left the yard before, doesn't get any exercise or attention. It's very possible he does need more exercise, but without being able to walk him down the street that's not going to happen. I already have my 4 year old walking 5km a day with us - and he jogs half of it so that I can keep a good pace - he can't be expected to walk any further than that on a daily basis.

Other times people see me training him and are complimenting me on how well he is going. He is the Jekyl and Hyde of dogs.

So now I have ordered an e collar (more money) and will be employing the help of a behaviourist (again) to teach me how to use it most appropriatly. I am concerned though that if he reacts badly to being corrected with the martingale he very well may be the same with the e collar.

In all honesty, the only thing keeping me trying is the fact that I love this dog. I keep telling myself things will improve as he matures - I'm not sure I believe myself though.

So, here is the question part after my vent - Are dogs like this likely to improve A LOT with age if the training is kept up, or is it very likely that this is it - this is him and the next 12 odd years is just going to be about constant management? Am I just experiencing the normal Aussie temperament? (I didn't expect reactive tbh) I really need some encouragement here.

[sas]

I'd look at a couple of things.

1) Get a different trainer/behaviourist because the current one isn't working

2) Consider this may just be who the dog is and that the dog may be suited to a different Owner

3) Sounds like you're super frustrated which is understandable but anything but calm isn't going to benefit this dog

The e-collar isn't about giving a correction WHACK - it's about using low level stims - K9 Pro has a distance Education Course on using them.

I don't think it's unusual for working breeds to be a little whacko if they're not getting what they need.....you may be trying hard and doing what you think should work but he needs something different...

Have you considered touching base with your local breed club and see if they can reccomend someone who is used to training this breed to help you?

I'm not sure if it's suitable, however did you read the topic and comments by Aidan on a product used to calm horses and dogs and dietary changes?

[Lucy's mama]

The e-collar isn't about giving a correction WHACK - it's about using low level stims

Yes, I understand this which is why I have chosen it over the 'big stick' method or a pinch collar.

I will have a look for that topic. Thanks.

I don't think it's unusual for working breeds to be a little whacko if they're not getting what they need.....you may be trying hard and doing what you think should work but he needs something different...

He is not at all 'whacko' around the house. He doesn't chew things up or dig or run tracks through the grass. He mostly lays around, interspersed with a bit of big stick carrying and a few zoomies here and there. He does bark a bit at other dogs he can hear barking and the plovers though.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Lucy's mama

[sas]

The e-collar isn't about giving a correction WHACK - it's about using low level stims

Yes, I understand this which is why I have chosen it over the 'big stick' method or a pinch collar.

I will have a look for that topic. Thanks.

Pinch = Prong collars aren't a big WHACK either, they're actaully pretty gentle if you're taught how to use them correctly (even though their appearance would say otherwise), dogs tend to self-correct themselves on them and many people can hold the lead with one finger. Prongs aren't suitable for all dogs either.

If someone gives a massive correction on a prong that would indicate to me that they haven't appropriately trained a dog on a prong.

I'm not sure an e-collar is suitable for your dog either, I would be having a consult with someone experienced in them first before I outlayed the money.

He is not at all 'whacko' around the house. He doesn't chew things up or dig or run tracks through the grass. He mostly lays around, interspersed with a bit of big stick carrying and a few zoomies here and there. He does bark a bit at other dogs he can hear barking and the plovers though.

Most dogs are pretty good at home, it's when you take them out into the world of mental stimulation....distractions.

Good luck withh everything, I'm sure a working breed person will be in soon with some advice

Edited July 23, 2010 by sas

[poodlefan]

From my limited experience - (my dog and my friend's) the answer is YES. Things can improve but it does require you to manage and desensitise your dog to new dogs.

My first piece of advice is don't get him so close to other dogs that he feels the need to lunge.. cross the street if you have to to give him more distance.

Edited July 23, 2010 by poodlefan

[Cosmolo]

In answer to your question, no they don't improve with age. If corrections are loading the dog, ie- making it worse, i would have a look at your timing- before you use the e collar.

Have you done any classical conditioning with the dog? What has the behaviourist said about your concerns?

Edited July 23, 2010 by Cosmolo

[Staranais]

If this were my dog, I would be looking at adding in a correction on a pinch collar for going into drive inappropriately, under the guidance of a good behaviourist if you have not done this before.

I would also make sure you are giving him a suitable outlet for his drives.

[Lucy's mama]

The behaviourist reccomended classical conditioning but I failed miserably at it.

I've tried getting slowly closer to the dogs that wind him up while treating him for not reacting. but if we are far enough away that he is not reactive then the dogs in the yard aren't out at the front fences barking and running which is what winds him up. Walking past calm dogs is fine. It's all the dogs fence running and barking that he has problems with.

It is when they are rushing the fences and barking that he reacts. If dogs are just there he is fine. He might want to say hello but a leash pop is all that is required to stop him.

I have not been back to the behaviourist yet. I have concentrated on his obedience instead. Now I am ready to try tackle this one again.

[Aidan]

In order to minimise anxiety or arousal with corrections it is absolutely imperative that the dog learns quickly exactly how to avoid the correction, otherwise you just make things worse (as you have seen). Every aversive event that doesn't get the intended message across will add to confusion, anxiety and arousal so it's a slippery slope.

"Control" is key here. The dog must feel in control of the consequences. Think of it as a finely balanced scale where "perceived lack of control" tips the scale into anxiety and reactivity, and "perceived control" tips the scale the other way into calm. Every event is a weight that sits on either side of that scale.

Punishing warning signals (such as barking, lunging etc) is also a slippery slope, there is not much point in getting rid of stuff that is actually quite useful in avoiding actual aggression if you don't also treat the cause of the anxiety. In my classes we set the dogs up for success then drill them until they can go out into the big wide world and still succeed, those that rush ahead can expect to come unstuck.

I would only physically hit a dog to avoid an impending disaster, so I'm glad you didn't listen to your breeder on that one.

Is there any reason you don't use a front-attaching harness? They work very well to give you back control. They don't stop lunging, barking etc but they will give you leverage, which seems to me would make your journey much easier.

[Aidan]

If dogs are just there he is fine. He might want to say hello but a leash pop is all that is required to stop him.

What happens if he is allowed to say hello? How is he off-leash with other dogs?

[Cosmolo]

What do you mean you failed miserably at classical conditioning?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I am a big fan of the e collar as most people know here, prong collar too in the right circumstances, but in all honesty (and maybe its the way I am reading this thread) I would not be using supression (correctons) on this dog at this point.

It seems the arousal (drive) your dog has is his problem, and this is a pretty common occurance with your higher drive dogs. Corrections / aversives do reduce drive if delivered correctly and at the correct level to match the drive being displayed.

If he is going into a huge amount of drive, he may need quite a correction, one you may not be willing or able to deliver at all times, which will mean as Aidan said, the problem will escalate.

The other problem with trying to correct out this behaviour, is that it leaves no where for your dog to vent his drive pressure.

What type of training do you do?

[Lucy's mama]

He is fantastic off lead with other dogs. Ignores me, but has a great play.

If I let him say hello on lead he is kind of 'stiff' if you know what I mean? The looser the lead the better he is, but I try to avoid it and only let it happen if the other dog is insisting. For eg, at the beach a few days ago an off lead husky insisted on saying hello (owner was a hundred plus meters away) First sniff was relaxed, he got a bit stiff then the husky growled so I just let go of the leash, banjo relaxed and they bowed to each other then played chasey.

Cosmolo - I just couldn't set up a situation where he could get it right.

[Lucy's mama]

At the moment only obedience. We start agility the first week of august.

If you mean do I train him in drive etc. then I'm not sure. Baisically I show him something he wants (food, tug, ball) and he gets it when he displays the behaviour I want. I start by luring the behaviour, use ýes' as a marker then fade the lure when he's got it, but keep the reward available but give it less often.

[Steve K9Pro]

At the moment only obedience. We start agility the first week of august.

If you mean do I train him in drive etc. then I'm not sure. Baisically I show him something he wants (food, tug, ball) and he gets it when he displays the behaviour I want. I start by luring the behaviour, use ýes' as a marker then fade the lure when he's got it, but keep the reward available but give it less often.

K9: Ok, at times your general obedience is more about rewarding calmness than satisfying drive, this leaves you with a dog that can be well trained at training, but triggers on movement everywhere else. In other words, the training isnt providing him the stimulation he needs to feel balanced.

I would say that he may have a socilaisation problem (IMO) his value for dogs may be too high, (ignores you) and his behaviour may also need correction, with the e collar or prong, which ever you decide, but I persoanlly would be looking at the cause rather than focus on the undesireable behaviour and simply trying to correct that out.

When this has been done I find that the problem you have may not go away or it might, but a new problem replaces it.

[poodlefan]

At the moment only obedience. We start agility the first week of august.

Until you have control of his behaviour, I'd be giving agility a miss. Its a very stimulating environment and dogs will (or should) be training offlead.

How's he going to react if an offlead dog runs up to him?

Edited July 23, 2010 by poodlefan

[Lucy's mama]

K9: Ok, at times your general obedience is more about rewarding calmness than satisfying drive, this leaves you with a dog that can be well trained at training, but triggers on movement everywhere else. In other words, the training isnt providing him the stimulation he needs to feel balanced.

Yes yes yes, That is exactly what he is like!

The rest of your post I am having trouble interpreting sorry.

I would say that he may have a socilaisation problem (IMO) his value for dogs may be too high, (ignores you) and his behaviour may also need correction, with the e collar or prong, which ever you decide, but I persoanlly would be looking at the cause rather than focus on the undesireable behaviour and simply trying to correct that out.

Aren you saying his value on dogs is the cause, and how do I go about changing that? Also, are you keeping in mind other dogs are the main trigger for his behaviour but he is also very aroused by other things too - anything he thinks he might be able to chase (Typical working dog) I did 100% expect to have to do a fair bit of work to ensure he didn't herd kids or bikes, but I obviously haven't done enough or the right things. He still chases the kids when they are moving very fast but very rarely collides with them, or jumps on them anymore.

When this has been done I find that the problem you have may not go away or it might, but a new problem replaces it.

This being focusing on the undesirable behaviour?

[Lucy's mama]

Until you have control of his behaviour, I'd be giving agility a miss. Its a very stimulating environment and dogs will (or should) be training offlead.

How's he going to react if an offlead dog runs up to him?

He will react by playing with them.

To be more clear, it is preagility 1 he is enrolled in. Preagility 1 and 2 are about gaining control off lead, learning training techniques and what works for your dog and building the skills he will need to start begginers agility.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Ok, at times your general obedience is more about rewarding calmness than satisfying drive, this leaves you with a dog that can be well trained at training, but triggers on movement everywhere else. In other words, the training isnt providing him the stimulation he needs to feel balanced.

Yes yes yes, That is exactly what he is like!

K9: yes I see a lot of dogs labelled "troublesome" that are exactly this way. We use drive these days as a very powerfuol therapy to relax the dog and balance drive.

I would say that he may have a socilaisation problem (IMO) his value for dogs may be too high, (ignores you) and his behaviour may also need correction, with the e collar or prong, which ever you decide, but I persoanlly would be looking at the cause rather than focus on the undesireable behaviour and simply trying to correct that out.

Aren you saying his value on dogs is the cause, and how do I go about changing that?

K9: Ideally you dont create it in the first place, I have a thread here called Socialisation and Neutralisation that will help understand this, but you can create a trigger that pays better than dogs and devalue the dog trigger this way (possibly with some supression {correction})

Also, are you keeping in mind other dogs are the main trigger for his behaviour but he is also very aroused by other things too - anything he thinks he might be able to chase (Typical working dog)

K9: Yes the triggers can even be none specific, like dogs cats but generally movement or at times reaction.

I did 100% expect to have to do a fair bit of work to ensure he didn't herd kids or bikes, but I obviously haven't done enough or the right things. He still chases the kids when they are moving very fast but very rarely collides with them, or jumps on them anymore.

K9: Picture a dog or a person that hasnt been fed for a week, and every time they reach for a piece of food, you slap their hand, can you see why they will come up with another way to get food? Or maybe try and grab the food faster? The initial problem (hunger) hasnt been dealt with.

[Lucy's mama]

I have read your socialisation and neutralisation thread.

Picture a dog or a person that hasnt been fed for a week, and every time they reach for a piece of food, you slap their hand, can you see why they will come up with another way to get food? Or maybe try and grab the food faster? The initial problem (hunger) hasnt been dealt with.

Yep, makes a lot of sense. So how to deal with the initial problem? By satisfying it? Taking him herding or lure coursing? Or will that just reinforce the chase and make him want to do it more?