Dogs Who Are Cat Chasers And Biters

[Loving my Oldies]

Greytmate, I understand your concern. Generally speaking, Gussy has a lovely life and doesn't come in contact with the dogs unless she decides to join us on our walks. I spend a lot of time in the front garden which is her domain and she loves spending time with me.

Myrtie is not a greyhound, but a tiny little terrier cross breed; however, I do understand that isn't doesn't matter what the size of the dog is if a cat is frightened of the dog.

As to why I haven't rehomed her, see my thread about her - she was in the pound as "Rescue or Reclaim Only" and the pound thought she was very old. http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=198210

She has very few teeth left, however the vet thinks she is only about 8 years of age despite having rotten teeth generally associated with a much older dog. After her dental, her tongue now hangs out of the side of her mouth and causes her discomfort and stress. Some days she is not well (a visit to the vet is scheduled) and I am not sure whether this is because of the constant licking and trying to get her tongue back into her mouth and thus swallowing air or what. She regularly throws up and I can tell she is the one throwing up because she licks dirt and there is dirt in the vomit.

I will be having more tests done when she is at the vets, because although on first visit and when she had her dental, her vital signs were judged to be excellent, I wonder whether there might be something lurking that isn't obvious.

So one of the reasons I haven't put her up for rehoming: I am not sure whether it is the correct thing to do to rehome a little dog who may have medical issues which we haven't found as yet.

You have made your point, I have read your posts carefully, I have asked for people's opinions, but would also be grateful if you didn't continue "to beat a dead horse".

[lovemesideways]

I would suggest reading a book called "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons!

A lot of good explanations about getting your dog to associate something they don't like (other dogs, or cats ) with something they love (food!).

You change the behaviour, and it leads to a change in the emotion behind the behaviour

[rubiton]

Our dog sees it as if its a cat its there as a thing to be chased by a dog - when on walks if one is close enough she'll try to charge but will listen and turn left (she knows left means go left) away from the cat property (have seen up to 10 cats in the front yard, roof, windows). However cat in HER yard and she's after it. Currently we've got one that comes in the yard just before dawn (I heard the collar but was gone by the time I could look outside) and she makes a point to patrol everywhere even though its gone.

We got her to the stage that she will listen to us and not go headlong after cats (unless they are in her backyard) but that about 8 years now so some you can train to listen to you but if its strong enough they will always see cats as things to chase. And remember if cats cant get away they can and will fight back against dogs - they can inflict eye damage with claws so be careful to always give the cat a space to escape to.

[noisymina]

I must admit, the first thought I had was........find a cat to slap him around a bit.

Even Kaisie, who now gets on with cats we have, will chase intruders off. But she will chase any intruder - dog, cat or human.

She got off to a very bad start here by treeing our cat first thing. :p

But it came good in the end. Long story. ;)

She's not stoopid. she realised she got locked in the garage straight after so we could get cat down. And even now, she checks that the other door is open in the garage before she goes in. Long memory!

[Rebanne]

poor cat, the cat was there first and should come first, no way I would subject mine to a high prey dog, way to stressful, for everyone.

[Souff]

MM. Ring around and find a foster carer that has a big, old, tough dog-bashing tom cat. Take Myrtie there today.

Totally agree. Best medicine. Myrtle should have met that cat when she was a puppy .... dominant male cats are excellent puppy trainers. We had several pups "raised" by an old tomcat and they are still the best mannered and sociable dogs in the crew when they are near cats. The younger ones missed out on getting swiped by a cranky cat when they were pups and yes, they have a total lack of respect for cats.

Souff

[dog geek]

MM, I would highlight what Poodlefan has said: dog secured, cat loose in room. Has worked for me with every dog I have introduced to my cats, including the latest Whippet who had an 'instant attack' mode when he saw cats.

BUT: first I would ask, have you tried this: secure dog (on leash, maybe) in room without cat, and concentrate on training the right response to a 'focus on me for a reward/praise' word.

Once you have lickle dog looking at you when you say your word, expecting praise and rewards, then introduce cat into the room - I would have the cat in the room FIRST, then walk the dog in on a lead. Don't forget to use your 'focus on me' word as you are entering the room.

If her response to the cat overwhelms her focus, then I suggest a firm 'NO' and a retreat out the door with no treat.

I try to establish the room as 'belonging' to the cat, and I have learnt to reward the wanted behaviour with lots of praise - maybe the dog needs to feel secure in the knowledge that seeing the cat changes very little in her situation, except to gain her rewards if she focusses on you.

The latest dog - a real cat-chaser - and his new Heater Buddy:

[New Age Outlaw]

While, as others have pointed out here, it is theoretically possible to re-educate the dog to some extent (though it is a long and arduous process to do so correctly), I would never be 100% trusting of the dog even after that, especially when it has the apparently extreme reactions that Myrtle has. I have seen these sorts of dogs go OK for a week, a month, even a few years and then, with no obvious warning, revert to the cat attack behaviour, with tragic results. To me personally, it simply wouldn't be worth the risk.

Edited July 22, 2010 by New Age Outlaw

[jemappelle]

With a lot of work MM you may be able to get Myrtie to behave herself around the cat, however, from my experience, the cat will never be comfortable around the dog.

When I was rescuing I had a lot of fosters here and one of my cats sorted them out pretty quickly. However there is one cat that is a little more wary of strange dogs, the dogs sensed this and that is the cat they chose to terrorise if they were so inclined.

I was lucky in that I had a very secure cat set up so the cats were always safe but I remember one dog in particular that would sit outside the cat area and eyeball this one cat in particular. The dog was kept separate as much as possible, however, I couldn't lock him inside all day when I was at work. After a couple of days the cat went off his food and luckily I was able to find alternate carer for the dog very quickly.

[Stitch]

Apart from all the training & health issues Myrtie may have, you could always just try to rehome her.

People will often surprise you and there just may be someone out there (like you) that is prepared to take her on.

It doesn't hurt to try!!

[mita]

I thought dog geek's post gave good ideas to try retraining. By rewarding both with treats when one is secured in the same room. But I also agree with the person who said that this can be a long process. Worth a try, tho', combined with judicious use of baby gates etc.

I was told to try that method when I brought our new adopted puss home from the UQ Adoption Program. Put her in a crate where she'd feel safe....then bring in the dogs to meet her for the first time. And, as soon as their eyes fell on the puss, give them a treat. So they'd get an association when the cat was there, treats were on. Therefore, good to have a puss around....& just sit and wait for the treat.

But that puss had already been tested at the uni for how she got on with a dog around. She scored on the second level for acceptance of a dog.

The 4 levels were...1. super- friendly & fearless around dogs, would even smooch to make friends; 2. very tolerant of a dog around; 3. reasonably tolerant but a little bit anxious about a strange dog....but likely could be persuaded to accept a family dog; 4. should never, ever be rehomed with a dog.

Tibbie boy next door was a real cat chaser (for the sport!). His Dad (whom he adored) was strict with him. He was not allowed to chase the family cat, Honey. Brockie got the message, but figured out another way of getting rid of the cat. He'd carryHoney's food dish way up the back yard & bury it. If you can't chase 'em out, starve 'em out.

When Brockie came over to our place to play (or stay), he figured he was out of his Dad's authority area & he'd chase our timid puss, Katie. Katie would retire to the safe front-yard courtyard.....& when in the house, would sit on top of the fridge.

Edited July 23, 2010 by mita

[Monah]

Bury the food!

This is very difficult. I've only had one cat chaser, a cattle dog we adopted at age 7, she had been an outside dog and taught to chase possums etc :D

Well, at our house she was indoors and with 4 cats, so we had to do something.

This may not work with a terrier breed though.

We would make her sit with us, and tell her 'dont look at the cat!!!!!!!!' (hmm probably blah blah to her, but she got the tone! )

She was not allowed to interact or have any opportunity to do anything naughty, but was always in the room etc. with us and the cats. Separated at all other times, bed time, if we were not home etc.

Eventually she just ignored them and after the first year would sleep and eat with them, as she did for the next 9 years ;) We had ot be very 'tough' with her, make sure she knew the 'rules', and not pussyfoot around. :p It obviously depends on the dog. but we care for a bc here about half the year, who is also a cat hater, and we have him right under control with the cats. Same thing though, never alone with them.

The cats smooch all around his face and he is fine, but he's not allowed to move, we tell him stay! etc. and if he ever gets even a little excited, he has to go outside for 10 mins. So far, after 5 years of visits, nothing has ever gone wrong.

with both these dogs they needed to undertand the boundaries and intros, treats would not have worked, but I'm sure with many dogs it does work.

They had to know that under NO circumstances was chasing or anything else acceptable. It's can a good idea to carry this through with other stuff, re chasing birds outside etc. so they really get the idea. LEAVE is also handy.

all dogs are so different that is hard to say what would be best, I do agree with the cat free, dog tied.

I'm also lucky that I have cats who are very used to dogs and rule the roost,, don't put up with any crap. That really helps the most.

Good luck, it IS a long process.xxxxxxx

[Greytmate]

But that puss had already been tested at the uni for how she got on with a dog around. She scored on the second level for acceptance of a dog.

The 4 levels were...1. super- friendly & fearless around dogs, would even smooch to make friends; 2. very tolerant of a dog around; 3. reasonably tolerant but a little bit anxious about a strange dog....but likely could be persuaded to accept a family dog; 4. should never, ever be rehomed with a dog.

But Gussy is fine with MM's other dogs and is not scared of them. She seems like a really good cat to live with dogs.

Her behaviour now is a reaction to Myrtie's prey drive, not to Myrtie being a dog.

Mature cats that live with dogs are adept at reading dog language. Way better than we are.

Mita I imagine those cats at Uni were rated with friendly dogs that were not in high prey drive. While there can be a huge range of reactions from cats in the presence of dogs showing high prey drive, in a normal cat, none of them will indicate the cat is not stressed.

[mita]

All fair points, Greytmate.

I should have added that both cats & dogs vary, from situation to situation. And you're right, that's what's happening in the Myrtle-Gussy situation. Gussy's usually fine with dogs. It's the addition of Myrtle that's changed dynamics for her. Which is why I'd give a fair try to desensitization. But acknowledge it takes time...if it works.

[kelpiekaye]

All fair points, Greytmate.

I should have added that both cats & dogs vary, from situation to situation. And you're right, that's what's happening in the Myrtle-Gussy situation. Gussy's usually fine with dogs. It's the addition of Myrtle that's changed dynamics for her. Which is why I'd give a fair try to desensitization. But acknowledge it takes time...if it works.

Goodluck, I reckon you can do it. At least Myrtles only little, you will sort it..I think poodlefans advise was sound.

[Greytmate]

All fair points, Greytmate.

I should have added that both cats & dogs vary, from situation to situation. And you're right, that's what's happening in the Myrtle-Gussy situation. Gussy's usually fine with dogs. It's the addition of Myrtle that's changed dynamics for her. Which is why I'd give a fair try to desensitization. But acknowledge it takes time...if it works.

Are you talking about desensitising Gussy or Myrtie? Because at the moment both are highly sensitised to each other.

I think training has a better chance of success if only one animal is being trained at a time. The sight of a cat that has chosen 'flight' over 'fight' is something that will undermine desensitisation for the dog, as its sets up a loop of positive feedback for the dog's drive. This dog has also experienced some level of satisfaction of the drive by catching and biting the cat.

With a another cat, a big tough one that chooses to stay and 'fight', this positive feedback can be avoided. We do not have to work on desensitising the cat, as its behaviour will not heighten the dog's drive, and may reduce it considerably. We would be training the dog, and not training two animals at the same time.

Using the right cat in the right way would allow proper assessment of what level of training and management is necessary to reduce the problem. Something I would find very difficult to assess in the current situation, with a terrified cat. MM will be in a much better position to decide whether training will be a realistic option if the dog's behaviour can be observed (safely on lead) with a cat that will stand its ground.

We cannot underestimate the power of strong prey drive. If a dog shifts into this mood it undergoes physiological changes where it blood supply is directed to its muscles and away from its brain and stomach. A dog in true prey drive will not be distracted by a treat or a verbal correction. Working with prey drive is a different realm of training to the normal rehab that rescue dogs require. I don't know what Myrtie's level of drive really is, and neither does anyone else here. So it is hard to predict how successful training will be.

The only difference between training little Myrtie and training a larger dog, is that if you get it wrong, Myrtie isn't big enough to instantly kill a cat.

[Loving my Oldies]

Myrtle should have met that cat when she was a puppy

Myrtie is from a pound, Souff, where she was going to be "pts" because they thought she was very old.

People will often surprise you and there just may be someone out there (like you) that is prepared to take her on.

You are right, of course :p . When I was a volunteer at Burwood Pound (Sydney) many years ago, the owner of the clinic where the pound was based used to say that the older and sicker the dogs was, the quicker it was rehomed.

1. super- friendly & fearless around dogs, would even smooch to make friends;

This is very interesting, Mita. Gussy is quite the opposite to the first part, but the second part is her to a tee and she does this when we are out walking. She will wait for us, or walk across the front lawn to join us. Sometime she will be trailing along behind us, then break into a sprint, run between us, then throw herself down on her back, legs in the air and wait for one of the dogs to reach her and then they start smooching. She regularly just walks up to one of the dogs and sniffs them (and they her) like another dog and rubs her face against them. She sometimes sits behind a telegraph pole and when one of the dogs starts sniffing the pole, will give them a swipe

But Gussy is fine with MM's other dogs and is not scared of them. She seems like a really good cat to live with dogs.

Funnily enough only outside, but if I bring her inside the house, she bolts for the bedroom where her catflap is. However, I am bringing her in more and more (I wear a thick coat ) and sit on the couch and she gradually relaxes and starts to purr.

This morning when we were all coming back from out walk, Gussy was waiting for us. She lay down and did her smoochey "aren't I cute" performance and we were only a few feet from her before Myrtie barked. Gussy then fled but only a couple of yards and stood there with her tail switching backwards and forwards.

Probably only a nano millimetre step forward, but I think there is hope.

I love hearing other people's ideas, suggestions and experiences. Thank you.

[Loving my Oldies]

The only difference between training little Myrtie and training a larger dog, is that if you get it wrong, Myrtie isn't big enough to instantly kill a cat.

There would be no case to consider if Myrtie were a dog big enough to harm, let alone kill, a cat.

[Greytmate]

She lay down and did her smoochey "aren't I cute" performance and we were only a few feet from her before Myrtie barked. Gussy then fled but only a couple of yards and stood there with her tail switching backwards and forwards.

Good sign. I am so glad she didn't take off again.

[tdierikx]

I'd be more worried about if/when Gussy decides she's bigger than Myrtie and gives her one with claws extended... errr!

T.