New Neighbourhood

[Ravyk]

Brennan's Mum, although for some odd reason I cannot access the facebook link you have posted, I can imagine what kind of pictures are there. Posting something like that is technically scaremongering, you don't know the story behind it, and most likely it is some piece of scum using the device to torture the dog. You posting the link is to try to put people off buying them, it's not calmly stating the pros and cons of the shock collar/anti barking collar. It is using shock tactics of horrible pictures to sway people to your opinion of them.

Not everyone agrees with purely positive reinforcement training [rewarding desirable behaviour, ignoring undesirable behaviour]. I am one who doesn't agree. Although the majority of my training is positive reinforcement there is a need to sometimes reprimand a dog for bad behaviour, whether it be a verbal reprimand, time out, etc. There are some behaviours that cannot be ignored, and barking I believe is one of them, especially if there is a danger to the dog if it continues [as in this case the possibility of poisoning].

Anti barking collars works on a simple psychological term of 'positive punishment' [something undesirable is given to the dog as punishment]. In this case they bark, and either they get small zap or spray of citronella [the punishment]. The majority of dogs pick up on this, and cease the behaviour, although you do get dogs that the citronella has no effect on.

To the OP,

As others have said, anti-barking collars and shock collars do not harm the dog if properly fitted and used properly. It is best to find someone who knows how to use them properly and can teach you how, so a dog behaviourist would be a good person to go to.

Just to clarify there are four main psychological elements of learning/training:

Positive Reinforcement [giving something desirable as a reward/reinforcement], ie. giving a treat when the dog sits on command

Negative Reinforcement [removing something undesirable as a reward/reinforcement], ie. dog stops pulling against his collar as it feels better on his throat

Positive Punishment [giving something undesirable as a punishment], ie. spray of citronella from a collar when the dog barks

Negative Punishment [removing something desirable as a punishment], ie. removing yourself from the room when a dog jumps up

[collie angel]

For people who keep their dogs inside during the day, are your dogs small or big? I would like to leave my two in all day but one is rather large and if I do they're manic by the time we get home.

My neighbour complained to the council about my 2 dogs saying they bark 24 7 number 1 they sleep inside no barking, my OH is home during the day they bark when ppl walk past like normal dogs do and then they stop normally after 3 barks he will go out there and shut them up but normally after 2 they stop themselevs and 3 all the sourounding neighbours say that my dogs dont bark that much at all but for our peice of mind if we are going to be out for longer than 2 hrs in the day they come inside, if we go out at night they are inside we have a 3 way bathroom and have put a baby gate up so they have a bit of room in there they are really good inside dont pee or wee and i have left a video recording to see if they do bark and they dont only when they hear us at the door you get the happy yap bark that they are excited to see you.

my council said not to stree about it as we have been there for 7 years and no one has complained and if she complains again all i have to do it get the other neighbours to sign a letter which they are all willing to do, my neighbour is trying to cause problems as we had a falling out last year over a bust water pipe i had to get fixed happend at 8pm at night and the plummer couldnt come till the next morning she didnt like that and when off her tree at me, i was not even rude as i knew we had to live next door to each other and before that she was coming over for BBQs getting my hubby to help her with things around the house as she lived on her own we did alot for her and now she is treating us like this, she even brought the dogs xmas treats at xmas so its strange how all of a sudden my dogs bark all the time....ahhh thats my vent for the day.

anyway good luck

[Brennan's Mum]

Brennan's Mum, although for some odd reason I cannot access the facebook link you have posted, I can imagine what kind of pictures are there. Posting something like that is technically scaremongering, you don't know the story behind it, and most likely it is some piece of scum using the device to torture the dog. You posting the link is to try to put people off buying them, it's not calmly stating the pros and cons of the shock collar/anti barking collar. It is using shock tactics of horrible pictures to sway people to your opinion of them.

It was a picture showing the potential damage caused by these collars and were also followed with some very good articles which provided an alternative point of view. In no way was it intended scaremongering. It was simply to allow the OP to make an informed decision. If some one felt it to be scaremongering then I ''apologise'' although I don't class it as scarmongering and to be called a scaremonger is just rude imo. The story behind the pictures is that it was a dog presented to a vet clinic after misuse of the collar.

In my opinion the OP deserves the right to make an informed decision. Whether she chooses one way or another is her choice. However, in this circumstances I have felt slammed for my difference of opinion. Now we can all go on and name people based on what training methods they use..and our own personal opinions. But end of day I do not apologise for being a Positive trainer, and I do not expect other's to apologise for choosing alternative methods. .

The one thing I expect as a forum user, is if I ask advice that I get opinions and links to all sides of thought. Be it training methods, or diet..when it comes to my dog I like to make an informed choice. I previously had to ask for opinions on switching my dogs diet..I got links for and against raw diet which ultimately meant I was able to make the right choice for my dog and myself.

That is all I had tried to do here.

I ended up feeling like I had no right to offer my suggestions and advice because they did not fit in with the majority of people.

[Brennan's Mum]

Brennan's Mum, although for some odd reason I cannot access the facebook link you have posted, I can imagine what kind of pictures are there. Posting something like that is technically scaremongering, you don't know the story behind it, and most likely it is some piece of scum using the device to torture the dog. You posting the link is to try to put people off buying them, it's not calmly stating the pros and cons of the shock collar/anti barking collar. It is using shock tactics of horrible pictures to sway people to your opinion of them.

It was a picture showing the potential damage caused by these collars and were also followed with some very good articles which provided an alternative point of view. In no way was it intended scaremongering. It was simply to allow the OP to make an informed decision. If some one felt it to be scaremongering then I ''apologise'' although I don't class it as scarmongering and to be called a scaremonger is just rude imo. The story behind the pictures is that it was a dog presented to a vet clinic after misuse of the collar.

In my opinion the OP deserves the right to make an informed decision. Whether she chooses one way or another is her choice. However, in this circumstances I have felt slammed for my difference of opinion. Now we can all go on and name people based on what training methods they use..and our own personal opinions. But end of day I do not apologise for being a Positive trainer, and I do not expect other's to apologise for choosing alternative methods. .

The one thing I expect as a forum user, is if I ask advice that I get opinions and links to all sides of thought. Be it training methods, or diet..when it comes to my dog I like to make an informed choice. I previously had to ask for opinions on switching my dogs diet..I got links for and against raw diet which ultimately meant I was able to make the right choice for my dog and myself.

That is all I had tried to do here.

I ended up feeling like I had no right to offer my suggestions and advice because they did not fit in with the majority of people.

[spottychick]

awww don't feel like that Brennans mum - of course you have the right - and I for one appreciate your input.

[Brennan's Mum]

awww don't feel like that Brennans mum - of course you have the right - and I for one appreciate your input.

Thank you.

Ultimately we should not be fighting about training methods. We as dog lovers have a greater fight...in BYBers, Puppy mills, Abuse to dogs, and the number of dogs ending up in shelters.

That is what we should be focusing on together--Not allowing training methods to seperate us.

[Robbi]

awww don't feel like that Brennans mum - of course you have the right - and I for one appreciate your input.

Thank you.

Ultimately we should not be fighting about training methods. We as dog lovers have a greater fight...in BYBers, Puppy mills, Abuse to dogs, and the number of dogs ending up in shelters.

That is what we should be focusing on together--Not allowing training methods to seperate us.

Very true, we need to be unified as dog owners and lovers against the great wrongs done to dogs not fighting amongst ourselves and I think most of us see the bigger picture and are open to new ideas and opinions and those that differ in opinion are no less entitled to theirs

[Ravyk]

Brennan's Mum, I do really appreciate your opinion and I understand that to make an informed choice, you do need to hear every side, so please don't feel that your opinion is not welcome. And I hope I didn't make you feel that way. If I did, I am really sorry.

[all that glitters]

I've never used them, but had a neighbour who did as her dogs barked non stop when they left the house (and of course they worked night shifts!).... the zapping collars. I think if the dog goes to bark it zaps them.

A bit drastic, but I think the theory is that they only bark twice and they learn....

I can understand constant barking would be annoying, but surely they can forgive the occasional bark???? They are dogs!!! That is what they do!

The dogs that got poisoned were barking constantly (imagine seriously how annoying that is) and the new neighbor just told the OP hers are barking "a lot" so something has to be done to rectify the problem!

For people who keep their dogs inside during the day, are your dogs small or big? I would like to leave my two in all day but one is rather large and if I do they're manic by the time we get home.

My dog is a german shepherd and she is kept in the whole house indoors only when we are at work 2 whole days a week I don't want to risk giving her outdoor access because of the potential for things to go wrong (her barking a lot and annoying people (she loves barking, whoohoo! haha), poisoning, digging out, jumping out, eating something she shouldn't etc) and I feel A LOT more comfortable being at work knowing she is indoors and safe My mum comes at lunchtime on those days to let her out for toilet and play with her a bit etc and to give her a nice shank or bone and then she leaves. Shylas known this routine since she was 8 weeks old

[Sheridan]

The trouble is, it's not just the risk of the physical damage done to the dog, but also the pyschological damage. There is no guarantee that the dog will associate the shock with the behaviour it is meant to be modifying ie barking.

I read on an email list recently about someone's dog fitted with an anti-bark zap collar. It was set off by another dog barking not just by the dog it was fitted to.

[kirsty79]

Wow, lots and lots of good and valid points. Thank you

Further update – I got home yesterday to find a flyer in my mail box. It was about Ruby, the dog which was poisoned and sadly passed away two weeks ago. RIP Little boofer

It stated (bearing in mind I have only just moved there and don’t know the full background) that Ruby’s barking had been brought to the attention of her owner, who is a struggling single mum and had to save for an anti-barking collar ($140 from the council to hire?) That complaints from the neighbours were not being ignored, the issue was trying to be resolved. Whereas, my next-door neighbour who I just met stated it had been mentioned several times and ignored regardless. Definite lack of communication either way.

What really scared me was this lady has an 18 month old daughter. This piece of meat with whatever it had in, it could have been picked up by the child! It bad enough an innocent animal has suffered. Surely the sick individual who did this did not wish to be up on a possible murder charge? What on earth possess someone to do this? I just cannot fathom.

Regarding my situ:

I am in a rental property where dogs are not allowed inside.

My partner and I both work Monday to Friday 7am to 6pm – commuting distance of an hour and a quarter each way.

So, inside the house is not an option and we cannot come home during the day. However, we do have a large double garage, but the house has no insulation – would it not be desperately hot when hitting 35c here in Brissy?

We could organise a covered dog run for the garden – I am leaning towards this because I don’t believe the council if contacted will think our dogs are “excessively” barking. Whenever we get back from being out, 9 times out of 10 the dogs are asleep in the sun! They don’t bark at all in the evening and night when we are at home. And it’s the occasional woof during the day, not like a solid hour of barking. I can appreciate its annoying – the house we just moved from, their poor dog was left alone all day everyday, never walked or any interaction. When left alone if would bark solidly for up to 5 hours. My two are not even in a comparison. So, I suppose my thinking is, not so much that there is a problem to solve but more protecting them from some sicko who is roaming our neighbourhood.

[Odin-Genie]

I don’t believe the council if contacted will think our dogs are “excessively” barking. Whenever we get back from being out, 9 times out of 10 the dogs are asleep in the sun!

Problem is that some people consider any barking a disruption of their right to peace. When they complain to the council and council considers their complaint invalid, it probably irks them even more and becomes a reason for personal vendetta.

If your neighbour has taken the initiative to drop fliers, I would tend to think she was trying to stop her dog from barking, but the person who complained didn't have the patience to wait.

[kirsty79]

I know nothing about these - what are peoples experiences / opinions?

PetSafe Outdoor Bark Deterrent PBC00-11216

The unit can be hung up, attached to trees, posts and so on or placed freestanding at a maximum recommended height of up to 1.5 metres. If the unit has to be mounted above 1.5 metres, it should be angled down toward the dog's location so that the speaker faces toward the dog, without intervening physical barriers such as fences (open mesh excepted) between it and the dog.

This unit can be used to reduce barking from your own dogs outdoors or to help control neighbouring dogs. It looks like a bird house so if it is used for neighbours' dogs, they will not necessarily be aware that it is helping to control the barking. An internal microphone picks up barking from up to 15 metres away and activates the ultrasonic signal. The unpleasant (but inaudible to humans) sound stops when the dog stops barking. The dog associates the unpleasant noise with its barking and reduces its barking to avoid the sound.

[oakway]

In SOME cases they work but not all.

It is a matter of finding the correct spot to put them. It can takes weeks of trial and error

to get them in the correct spot. If they are battery operated the batteries can run out and

are not effective.

[oakway]

The trouble is, it's not just the risk of the physical damage done to the dog, but also the pyschological damage. There is no guarantee that the dog will associate the shock with the behaviour it is meant to be modifying ie barking.

I read on an email list recently about someone's dog fitted with an anti-bark zap collar. It was set off by another dog barking not just by the dog it was fitted to.

I would take that with a grain of salt.

The collars are constructe so that only the dog wearing it can activate it.

[oakway]

i groomed a Belgian Shepherd just a few weeks ago that had horrific wounds on its neck that i thought were grass seed abcess. When the owner collected the dog i started telling/showing the wounds....he quickly put 2 & 2 together and solved the mystery. The dog had been wearing a shock collar loaned from the council after they had a complaint about the dog barking. He was mortified by the damage to the dog, as it had been hiding away in the thick hair.

I'm not saying they are an entirely bad idea, just if you choose the option, become well informed about their proper use.

Good luck

Usually caused by a slack owner leaving the collar on for extended periods, not the way to go at all.

Or fitted incorrectly.

You can discuss this all you like but it comes down to this.

Keep the dog quiet or you and the dog MAY suffer consequences. (sorry but that is fact)

No matter what method you use there will always be some body out their that disagrees.

I gave a suggestion in the anti bark collar (zapper)

the next suggestion is to de bark and at your dogs age I would be looking into the matter with a vet and see what sort of guarantees you could get ...re...anesthetic.

[Jetty]

The garage should be okay since its winter until you get a dog run up

[Dame Aussie]

Wow. Sorry but if I were in your position, I would keep my dogs inside despite not being allowed to.

No way would I leave them out there if that kind of stuff is going in in the street.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I know nothing about these - what are peoples experiences / opinions?

PetSafe Outdoor Bark Deterrent PBC00-11216

The unit can be hung up, attached to trees, posts and so on or placed freestanding at a maximum recommended height of up to 1.5 metres. If the unit has to be mounted above 1.5 metres, it should be angled down toward the dog's location so that the speaker faces toward the dog, without intervening physical barriers such as fences (open mesh excepted) between it and the dog.

This unit can be used to reduce barking from your own dogs outdoors or to help control neighbouring dogs. It looks like a bird house so if it is used for neighbours' dogs, they will not necessarily be aware that it is helping to control the barking. An internal microphone picks up barking from up to 15 metres away and activates the ultrasonic signal. The unpleasant (but inaudible to humans) sound stops when the dog stops barking. The dog associates the unpleasant noise with its barking and reduces its barking to avoid the sound.

i know someone who bought this but it didnt work for their dogs. if the dogs bark in the garage it is likely to be more annoying as the noise echos

Edited July 20, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[grabit]

i groomed a Belgian Shepherd just a few weeks ago that had horrific wounds on its neck that i thought were grass seed abcess. When the owner collected the dog i started telling/showing the wounds....he quickly put 2 & 2 together and solved the mystery. The dog had been wearing a shock collar loaned from the council after they had a complaint about the dog barking. He was mortified by the damage to the dog, as it had been hiding away in the thick hair.

ok please correct me if i am wrong but i was under the impression that shock collars where illegal in SA for some time now (along with prong collars) there was def a campaign by the RSPCA to make them so. If this is the case the council should not be loaning them to anybody

Please don't missunderstand me to mean i don't agree with these methods of training where other options have been tried and failed. Its just that as an owner and a vet nurse that i would be VERY careful about using them without doing my research on this as i know the collars are still widely available and would not want to be charged for " animal cruelty" either