Opinions Pleease

[lovemesideways]

So I've made a second training video. How to train your dog to bow.

Would love some opinions

be gentle though.

[aussielover]

Very cute! Riddick is adorable! I'm guessing that was rover at the end?

How and when do you incorporate a hand/voice signal?

How long did it take riddick to learn?

Please make one of how to teach your dog to put his paw over his face! I've always wanted to teach this!

[Danois]

Would you not be better increasing the bridge between the action and the marker to get them to hold position instead of constant treating i.e gradually increase the time between them going into a bow and marking the behaviour?

There is also a chance that when you move the hand out in front of the dog to bring it back in again, that the dog will break easily to follow the hand forward for the treat.

Have a look at this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUAaRxVz7WY - it shows how to build the behaviour up to stop them going into a drop without the need to use an arm or lead under them.

[kirst_goldens]

hehe cute!!

[MavericksMission]

[lovemesideways]

Thanks guys !

Very cute! Riddick is adorable! I'm guessing that was rover at the end?

How and when do you incorporate a hand/voice signal?

How long did it take riddick to learn?

Please make one of how to teach your dog to put his paw over his face! I've always wanted to teach this!

It took Riddick less than a day to learn. He picked it up so quickly! (as opposed to Shake which took him like a week ) I start incorporating the hand and/or voice signal when I'm 100% positive that he is going to bow every time. So at the stage hes at now I will start bringing in the the voice cue

If he broke the down and tried to lie down or stand up. I would just say "woops! Silly boy" and get up, walk off, then come back to it.

Would you not be better increasing the bridge between the action and the marker to get them to hold position instead of constant treating i.e gradually increase the time between them going into a bow and marking the behaviour?

There is also a chance that when you move the hand out in front of the dog to bring it back in again, that the dog will break easily to follow the hand forward for the treat.

Have a look at this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUAaRxVz7WY - it shows how to build the behaviour up to stop them going into a drop without the need to use an arm or lead under them.

The point of constantly treating is to basically keep them bowing, and reward them for doing so. They learn that this bowing thing is really good, I get food, and I get food if I stay bowing to! You can also train it by increasing the bridge between marker and action. Thats a different method though, (I would use it for sure if I was training with toys rather than food).

When you start of, you constantly treat. Then you gradually have longer and longer bridges between action and treat . I used the same method when I teach anything where I want the dog to stay there, and anyone who's met him will tell you that Riddick stay is really really fantastic.

and yeah I've seen that video! Theres a few really good ones using the clicker ! Awesome dane in the video, and I love how she bows to the dog as a cue! (may steal that )

[Danois]

Do you realise that you have the same issue as the last video? It does not demonstrate that the command 'bow' has been learnt by the dog - it just shows the dog being lured into position with food.

Can you take some video of him being given the 'bow' command (either voice or hand signal) without any luring whatsoever?

Using a clicker is no different than using a marker word like Yes - it just provides a more unique sound than a word.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Danois

[lovemesideways]

Do you realise that you have the same issue as the last video? It does not demonstrate that the command 'bow' has been learnt by the dog - it just shows the dog being lured into position with food.

Can you take some video of him being given the 'bow' command (either voice or hand signal) without any luring whatsoever?

Using a clicker is no different than using a marker word like Yes - it just provides a more unique sound than a word.

Did you see the clip at the very end? That is my older dog rover bowing on a voice cue, I taught him the same way I'm teaching riddick. I say "Take a bow!" and he bows down.

And in the last video, with Shake it does show that he knows the hand signal (as he lifts his paw when I offer my hand), just not a voice cue.

You have to remember that the point of these videos is really for the general public. Simplifying tricks in a easy way that someone can just find this one clip on youtube and from there, teach their dog to bow. Since there are quite a few videos on free shaping different tricks, as opposed to luring, that is why I'm using luring. I think for someone who is not really dog savy, or just has awful timing (like my mum, who hates using a clicker or even marking something as she always gets the timing really wrong!) luring is a easy option. Easy to understand, and easy to execute.

Edited July 17, 2010 by lovemesideways

[Ravyk]

Looks great Jen!

Personally I am a fan of luring, it is how I have trained my dogs to do all their basic commands [sit drop roll, etc]. They respond to all with voice commands and/or hand signals now. I also teach my dogs tricks starting off with luring and progressing from there to hand signals or voice commands.

It's all about what works best for the person and the dog. In some cases free shaping suits the trainer and dog more than luring might, or for certain tricks capturing works better. In this case there is no right or wrong way to train the dog to bow, its all about personal preference.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Ravyk

[haylz27]

Cool vid! That's an interesting and easy way to teach it. I taught Indi to bow a completely different way though. All I did was get her really excited with one of her favourite things (SOCKS lol!) and sometimes she'd naturally go into the bow position because she was in play mode. (this obviously wouldn't work for dogs who don't already naturally offer this behaviour) If she didn't, I would lure her, but I didn't have to put my arm under her.

Here's a video of her bowing (right towards the end...) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vwbS-rFJ1o

[lovemesideways]

Looks great Jen!

Personally I am a fan of luring, it is how I have trained my dogs to do all their basic commands [sit drop roll, etc]. They respond to all with voice commands and/or hand signals now. I also teach my dogs tricks starting off with luring and progressing from there to hand signals or voice commands.

It's all about what works best for the person and the dog. In some cases free shaping suits the trainer and dog more than luring might, or for certain tricks capturing works better. In this case there is no right or wrong way to train the dog to bow, its all about personal preference.

I agree, there are some tricks I would never teach with luring, because the outcome will be much better with something else, but for others I find luring to be a great method.

Cool vid! That's an interesting and easy way to teach it. I taught Indi to bow a completely different way though. All I did was get her really excited with one of her favourite things (SOCKS lol!) and sometimes she'd naturally go into the bow position because she was in play mode. (this obviously wouldn't work for dogs who don't already naturally offer this behaviour) If she didn't, I would lure her, but I didn't have to put my arm under her.

Here's a video of her bowing (right towards the end...) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vwbS-rFJ1o

Haha Riddick is also a huge fan of socks. I will often find dirty docks that where in the laundry tend to Magically reappear on his mat. He'll be lying next to them with a angelic expression "What sock? Oh that sock! Oh I don't know how that got there *halo of innocence*"

I love hearing the different ways people taught a trick! Riddick will naturally bow when playing with another dog, but trying to mark that would just be silly. This was for me the best way to get him to do it. He'll throw himself onto the ground in a down position fast enough, so keeping his back end up required some kind of block . My friends labrador Regal however has to be taught that Down didn't equal Ass in air

Different dogs, different methods.

Indi is gorgeous btw!!

[DerRottweiler]

Nice vid.

I liked the omnomnom caption lol!

[RubyStar]

or for certain tricks capturing works better.

I taught "take a bow" by capturing. First time I've used that method, thought I'd give it a shot (as I'm usually a fan of free shaping, or the occasional lure when I feel that will work better) and I have to say capturing the bow was an interesting approach!

[Parkeyre]

The vid is great.

[Danois]

You have to remember that the point of these videos is really for the general public. Simplifying tricks in a easy way that someone can just find this one clip on youtube and from there, teach their dog to bow.

And that's my point - if you are putting clips on youtube to teach people tricks for their dog then you need to be actually teaching the trick properly. Teaching tricks is not about simplifying them but about building the behaviour so that you have a solid trick at the end of the training.

I can teach my dog to lure into a bow in about 30 seconds but it will take several more sessions (always a max of a couple of mins when teaching new behaviours) to then add the command word, then increase the bridge and then ask for the behaviour without lure.

[huski]

I agree with Dan - with instructional vids I like to see the trick taught to the end.

I don't have a problem with luring and I do use it but the real challenge is getting the dog to do the command on voice/hand signal without luring with a treat as it demonstrates they actually know the command.

[kelpiekaye]

You have to remember that the point of these videos is really for the general public. Simplifying tricks in a easy way that someone can just find this one clip on youtube and from there, teach their dog to bow.

And that's my point - if you are putting clips on youtube to teach people tricks for their dog then you need to be actually teaching the trick properly. Teaching tricks is not about simplifying them but about building the behaviour so that you have a solid trick at the end of the training.

I can teach my dog to lure into a bow in about 30 seconds but it will take several more sessions (always a max of a couple of mins when teaching new behaviours) to then add the command word, then increase the bridge and then ask for the behaviour without lure.

Why not simplify tricks if the end result is the same. There are many ways to train a dog, different methods work for different dogs and people.

[aussielover]

You have to remember that the point of these videos is really for the general public. Simplifying tricks in a easy way that someone can just find this one clip on youtube and from there, teach their dog to bow.

And that's my point - if you are putting clips on youtube to teach people tricks for their dog then you need to be actually teaching the trick properly. Teaching tricks is not about simplifying them but about building the behaviour so that you have a solid trick at the end of the training.

I can teach my dog to lure into a bow in about 30 seconds but it will take several more sessions (always a max of a couple of mins when teaching new behaviours) to then add the command word, then increase the bridge and then ask for the behaviour without lure.

There is more than one way to teach a dog the same trick

Different methods work better for different dogs. Having perosnally seen Riddick and Rover perform their repetoire of tricks I can assure you that LMS does know what she's doing and the methods she uses definitely work!

In don't think LMS was indictating that the trick could be taught in one 30 sec session.

I will be attempting to teach my little monster this trick this afternoon

Edited July 18, 2010 by aussielover

[lovemesideways]

I agree with Dan - with instructional vids I like to see the trick taught to the end.

I don't have a problem with luring and I do use it but the real challenge is getting the dog to do the command on voice/hand signal without luring with a treat as it demonstrates they actually know the command.

Going by some requests by people, I'm going to do a second video showing how I'll go from the long handsignal, to just a word .

You have to remember that the point of these videos is really for the general public. Simplifying tricks in a easy way that someone can just find this one clip on youtube and from there, teach their dog to bow.

And that's my point - if you are putting clips on youtube to teach people tricks for their dog then you need to be actually teaching the trick properly. Teaching tricks is not about simplifying them but about building the behaviour so that you have a solid trick at the end of the training.

I can teach my dog to lure into a bow in about 30 seconds but it will take several more sessions (always a max of a couple of mins when teaching new behaviours) to then add the command word, then increase the bridge and then ask for the behaviour without lure.

There is more than one way to teach a dog the same trick

Different methods work better for different dogs. Having perosnally seen Riddick and Rover perform their repetoire of tricks I can assure you that LMS does know what she's doing and the methods she uses definitely work!

In don't think LMS was indictating that the trick could be taught in one 30 sec session.

I will be attempting to teach my little monster this trick this afternoon

Wouldn't it be great if a dog could learn a trick in 30 seconds? unfortunately is does take longer. As you can see by the fast-forwarded part of the video, practice makes perfect!

Try and take a video of Mindy doing the trick and then you could post it on youtube !!

Edited July 18, 2010 by lovemesideways

[Cordelia]

then you need to be actually teaching the trick properly.

Teaching a trick 'properly' is merely an opinion. I prefer clicker training but luring works well for some people and some dogs... I can see what the big deal is people doing it are spending time with and having fun with their well behaved dogs.. I can't see a negative in that.