Dol Advertisements

[pixie_meg]

I want to pre empt this by saying that i am genuinely interested in how this all works and not accusing anyone of anything. I am concerned however that because of the trust that newbies put in the site, they also extend that trust to what is advertised - rightly or wrongly.

I've been reading over the last year or so since joining about many peoples bad experiences with some registered breeders. From scams, to no papers to other unethical practices. Many of these breeders were found on the DOL puppy advertisements. I understand that these are paid advertisements and buying a puppy should be done with a lot of research. But, I'm wondering what can be done to limit unethical breeders advertising.

When there is real proof that an advertised breeder is doing the wrong thing, does the admin of this site restrict their advertising or do anything. Especially because of what this site represents being purebred pedigreed healthy breeds, i'd hope that something is done. Perhaps a strike system, advertising at the discretion of the site admin.

thoughts?

[Steve]

I want to pre empt this by saying that i am genuinely interested in how this all works and not accusing anyone of anything. I am concerned however that because of the trust that newbies put in the site, they also extend that trust to what is advertised - rightly or wrongly.

I've been reading over the last year or so since joining about many peoples bad experiences with some registered breeders. From scams, to no papers to other unethical practices. Many of these breeders were found on the DOL puppy advertisements. I understand that these are paid advertisements and buying a puppy should be done with a lot of research. But, I'm wondering what can be done to limit unethical breeders advertising.

When there is real proof that an advertised breeder is doing the wrong thing, does the admin of this site restrict their advertising or do anything. Especially because of what this site represents being purebred pedigreed healthy breeds, i'd hope that something is done. Perhaps a strike system, advertising at the discretion of the site admin.

thoughts?

How is the admin of this site to determine whether complaints are genuine or hold any substance?

The MDBA investigates every complaint made against our members.This costs us lots of money and a whole heap of resources - how is Troy to cover this?

The conditions for advertising here are that the breeder is registered with their canine council and they have a registered prefix.Its the job of the CCs and in our case the MDBA to look at complaints against our members and decide whether they are to be acted on or not. If the CC decides a breeder is guilty and removes their prefix then they are no longer eligible to advertise here.

In other words the onus for deciding whether someone is guilty as accused or whether any action should be taken is up to the governing body not up to a website owner who isn't able to cover whats needed to sort it out. If Troy is able to see they no longer have a prefix he can remove them on the assumption they are either no longer breeding or they have been chucked out of the CCs but until then they fit the criteria for allowing them to advertise.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Steve

[kirst_goldens]

i agree with steve - it would be very hard to police and would get very political if they threw off all the adds people complained about - some puppy buyers ask too much of breeders or dont understand or didnt research properly etc etc...

Some breeders also dont put their litter reg papers for months after the litter has all been homed, so some of these people might have just not recieved their papers YET - and then the argument is a he said she said and we are usually only hearing on side of the story - usually the buyers - the breeders dont get to plead their case to us and so we really cant make a judgement about the issue and can only point the buyer in the right direction to sort the issue out.

[pixie_meg]

i agree with steve - it would be very hard to police and would get very political if they threw off all the adds people complained about - some puppy buyers ask too much of breeders or dont understand or didnt research properly etc etc...

I was by no means saying that all complaints equalled cancelled ads, I just thought it was worth considering some of these extreme cases. I don't know what goes on behind the scene, and i'm sure many others don't and wonder what does. A chance to get some knowledge of what goes into weeding out the unethical in terms of what canine councils do. Afterall, some discussions have led to a lot of distrust in some CCC's actually enforcing that registered breeders are ethical.

Some breeders also dont put their litter reg papers for months after the litter has all been homed, so some of these people might have just not recieved their papers YET - and then the argument is a he said she said and we are usually only hearing on side of the story - usually the buyers - the breeders dont get to plead their case to us and so we really cant make a judgement about the issue and can only point the buyer in the right direction to sort the issue out.

I agree, its hard for breeders, they're immediately put as the baddies, justified or not. They're not here to defend themselves, i'm more talking in the case of a breeder of 'unnamed' breed who takes money(full deposits for a puppy already born) from puppy buyers and never gives them puppies. 1 person could be a liar or just bad luck, misunderstanding, but multiple stories of the same outcome, thats a different story. just an example.

I can understand why its sticky ground and word of warning is always buyer beware.

Just wondering what can be done. Maybe an external site rating puppy buyers experiences with breeders. Much like builder reviews. one bad review doesn't kill you but multiple bad reviews of jilted buyers must mean you're doing something wrong. I know many of us would rate the breeders we've bought from favourably.

[Staranais]

Just wondering what can be done. Maybe an external site rating puppy buyers experiences with breeders. Much like builder reviews. one bad review doesn't kill you but multiple bad reviews of jilted buyers must mean you're doing something wrong. I know many of us would rate the breeders we've bought from favourably.

Yes, why can't puppy purchasers write reviews on breeders?

There might be a few people that write unfairly bad reviews, but for good breeders, the good reviews should outnumber the bad reviews many times over. The site could always allows breeders to comment on reviews as well, so they can explain reviews that that they don't agree with.

[Bisart Dobes]

How can you blame / expect / request the admin of a commercial site to monitor or to make that judgement. The only thing they could do would be to ban a breeder once a certain amount of complaints were proven against them.

Anyway it is not the onus of a site such as this to do that. Even breed clubs don't take any responsibility for the puppies / temperaments / health etc etc that breeders list / advertise with them.

Perhaps they could set up a review section in each breed for people who have dealt with breeders from that breed. BUT who then takes responsibilty for the really bad reviews that are placed there - in all fairness they would have to be left for all to view. I know of one breeder in our breed who would never sell another puppy if this were the case !

[BJean]

Yes, why can't puppy purchasers write reviews on breeders?

how about Breeders write reviews on puppy buyers and puppy enquiries?

Edited July 17, 2010 by lilli

[Pulilover]

I don't like the idea of independent reviews. There is too much scope for breeders posing as someone else and slagging other breeders.

The best solution to the problem is for the buyer to go and personally visit the breeder, view health tests, pedigrees, the dogs. I cannot tell you how many puppy buyers within a small driving distance never wanted to view puppies, parents, papers or meet the breeder when I was living in Sydney. This shocked me as when I spend X amount of money on anything I would want to see what I am getting and research it thoroughly.

Compared to many other websites that sell puppies DOL is one of few that require ANKC breeders prefix as a minimum standard. The rest is up to the buyer.

[bridie]

Yes, why can't puppy purchasers write reviews on breeders?

how about Breeders write reviews on puppy buyers and puppy enquiries?

Reviews......a book in all of us

[Sheridan]

Yes, why can't puppy purchasers write reviews on breeders?

how about Breeders write reviews on puppy buyers and puppy enquiries?

I think that's done already.

[oakway]

And the breeders cop it again. People wonder why there are less breeders out there and less people showing.

I can tell them why. I am wholeheartedly sick of people wanting a puppy and cross questioning me.

I am the breeder I ask the questions and you can make up your mind when you are invited to my home to see the pups.

The majority of breeders are above reproach and have only the best interest of their breed in mind.

Some of the people want to know the In's and outs of a Magpie's behind.

Just because a few are not kosher, please stop taring us with the same brush.

Would you expect your news paper or magazine to give a rating with every advertisement ? no of course you wouldn't.

Most breeders have the writing on the wall with stock they breed, just go to a show and see the the quality they produce,

or ask how many Australian Champions they have bred. Soon sorts the chalk from the cheese.

[pixie_meg]

How can you blame / expect / request the admin of a commercial site to monitor or to make that judgement. The only thing they could do would be to ban a breeder once a certain amount of complaints were proven against them.

Perhaps re-read my post. Not once did i

blame/expect/request

the admin to do anything, i was just opening up the discussion for possible solutions to a problem. bad breeders are a problem for ethical breeders. I know a few people off line who think registered breeders are just as bad as puppy farmers because of their bad experiences.

What about a positive review site. If nothing bad is being said then puppy buyers can either assume that an absence of reviews is just that the breeders are new, or relatively unknown or not good. Positive reviews that include information about after delivery communication, and ethical practices say a lot more than another review saying "my puppy is so cute".

[pixie_meg]

And the breeders cop it again. People wonder why there are less breeders out there and less people showing.

I can tell them why. I am wholeheartedly sick of people wanting a puppy and cross questioning me.

I am the breeder I ask the questions and you can make up your mind when you are invited to my home to see the pups.

The majority of breeders are above reproach and have only the best interest of their breed in mind.

Some of the people want to know the In's and outs of a Magpie's behind.

Just because a few are not kosher, please stop taring us with the same brush.

Would you expect your news paper or magazine to give a rating with every advertisement ? no of course you wouldn't.

Most breeders have the writing on the wall with stock they breed, just go to a show and see the the quality they produce,

or ask how many Australian Champions they have bred. Soon sorts the chalk from the cheese.

When did i say all breeders are the same. touchy a little. Quite the opposite, i'm saying that the problem is that there is a small minority that are doing the wrong thing and that they bring down the whole reputation of pedigree breeders for some people. I have had great experiences, i do my research. I know that the majority do the right thing and I really respect breeders what you do and the effort you put into breeding good dogs and finding good homes for them. I'm in no way badmouthing you.

I had a feeling i'd get misunderstood about this.

[SwaY]

I have reported a few breeders and Troy has removed them.

I supply him proof - VCA suspension, Non Financial prefix, Online Ads of them selling pups with out papers etc

[kmaci]

The MDBA investigates every complaint made against our members.This costs us lots of money and a whole heap of resources - how is Troy to cover this?

The conditions for advertising here are that the breeder is registered with their canine council and they have a registered prefix.Its the job of the CCs and in our case the MDBA to look at complaints against our members and decide whether they are to be acted on or not. If the CC decides a breeder is guilty and removes their prefix then they are no longer eligible to advertise here.

Can the general public contact the MDBA or CCs to ask if the breeder they thinking of purchasing from has had any complaints against them in the past?

[Steve]

The MDBA investigates every complaint made against our members.This costs us lots of money and a whole heap of resources - how is Troy to cover this?

The conditions for advertising here are that the breeder is registered with their canine council and they have a registered prefix.Its the job of the CCs and in our case the MDBA to look at complaints against our members and decide whether they are to be acted on or not. If the CC decides a breeder is guilty and removes their prefix then they are no longer eligible to advertise here.

Can the general public contact the MDBA or CCs to ask if the breeder they thinking of purchasing from has had any complaints against them in the past?

Yes. So far we have had to remove 2 breeders, one rescue and one trainer.

[BJean]

The MDBA investigates every complaint made against our members.This costs us lots of money and a whole heap of resources - how is Troy to cover this?

The conditions for advertising here are that the breeder is registered with their canine council and they have a registered prefix.Its the job of the CCs and in our case the MDBA to look at complaints against our members and decide whether they are to be acted on or not. If the CC decides a breeder is guilty and removes their prefix then they are no longer eligible to advertise here.

Can the general public contact the MDBA or CCs to ask if the breeder they thinking of purchasing from has had any complaints against them in the past?

I imagine that the CCs would only tell you what is public information anyway ie: complaints that have been upheld.

All upheld breaches of COE (what and by whom) are printed in the gazette (Dogs Vic).

[pixie_meg]

I have reported a few breeders and Troy has removed them.

I supply him proof - VCA suspension, Non Financial prefix, Online Ads of them selling pups with out papers etc

Thanks Sway, thats what i wanted to know.

[Staranais]

Yes, why can't puppy purchasers write reviews on breeders?

how about Breeders write reviews on puppy buyers and puppy enquiries?

That's not a bad idea either, might help new breeders avoid falling for export scams, or selling to crappy owners, etc. I would support that idea.

[Greytmate]

And the breeders cop it again. People wonder why there are less breeders out there and less people showing.

I can tell them why. I am wholeheartedly sick of people wanting a puppy and cross questioning me.

I am the breeder I ask the questions and you can make up your mind when you are invited to my home to see the pups.

The majority of breeders are above reproach and have only the best interest of their breed in mind.

If people feel as though they cannot question you, they may feel as if they have no way of knowing whether you are "beyond reproach" or not.

If you want people to know that you are "beyond reproach" you need to be able overcome people's doubts, and that won't happen with a defensive attitude to questions.