Craig Murray Dog Training

[Erny]

I understand where you're coming from, Huski. You're only asking why a trainer would have a training method that denies the use of food, when for some dogs, food might prove an advantage to teach, enhance and promote skills.

[Grace1979]

But I dont see the point in plugging away trying to force a reward onto an animal if it values something more highly, especially as the better of two options in a situation. Nekhbet i agree with you there. As i said before im very new to the whole dog training thing and Grace is def not food motivated and i hated the fact that at my last dog training place i really only thought that food was the only way to go. There was nothing that i gave her that she was interested in and i really felt like a failure because my dog didnt want to drop or do any basic obedience to food. Im hopeing to learn something new to help her be a calm and well mannered dog in our household.

[Grace1979]

At the end of the day you choose a trainer that is compatable with your dog. Im looking forward to trying something different with grace.

[huski]

I understand where you're coming from, Huski. You're only asking why a trainer would have a training method that denies the use of food, when for some dogs, food might prove an advantage to teach, enhance and promote skills.

yes that's exactly what I am wondering

[huski]

Grace there is nothing wrong with that, I am just curious knowing my own dog and knowing how well food works with her why a trainer would rule that out completely.

[Nekhbet]

Nekhbet fair enough but what if you have a dog who is extremely food driven? It's all well and good to say I don't understand where Craig is coming from but please explain what you would do with a dog who is extremely motivated by food and not much all.

well ya know what .. hows about you ring him up and ask him yourself? Since you make such a valid point. Maybe Craig himself would like to explain to you his methods and reasoning. I know the man but like any other trainer, I wouldnt dare be presumptuous and try to explain all of his methodology as I'm sure I would not communicate it to their exact reasoning.

But to repeat myself - not all training requires food, even if the dog IS highly food motivated. When you start dealing with behaviour, its not just clicks, treats, rewards, etc etc. Even if a dog is highly food motivated, there is no dog that will simply lay down in protest if you do not bring a treat with you. If it does, then I apply an aversive as motivation - then we're dealing with a spoiled, lazy animal that has not had to work for anything. I offer the option - work and be reinforced, or dont work and get something thats not as nice. When a dog has to weigh up the options trust me, they'll take what they can get and turn whatever is around them into a reinforcer. Food then gets offered as a jackpot for super duper behaviour if that is what the dog likes. That is one way.

[corvus]

But I dont see the point in plugging away trying to force a reward onto an animal if it values something more highly, especially as the better of two options in a situation.

I wasn't saying that should be done. I certainly never used the word "force" and that was very deliberate. I used the word "try" because I accept that some dogs aren't into food. I think that the point I am trying to make here is missing the mark. One can develop reinforcers that aren't especially strong in a dog, and it's a worthwhile exercise if it works because different reinforcers are suited to different situations. For example, why have I spent months getting Kivi to tug when he works so beautifully for food? Because food doesn't get him running and play does. Play swings open doors that were stiff and hard to budge with food. Play increases arousal and therefore increases the behavioural possibilities. The reason why I love rapid fire so much is because it's a very clear message to the dog and it really gets their attention. Sometimes if the dog is very distracted (like, too distracted to play for example), it's the one thing you might have to avoid the need to correct your dog.

Grace, what you do with your dog is up to you. Sounds like it is a good decision for you. I am not arguing that you shouldn't go that route. You can certainly train a dog without food, just thought folks should be aware that there are times when it's very useful to have a dog that works for food, so it's probably worth trying to get them doing it before that day. If they don't ever work for food then they don't. What have you lost? It's not like you have to pick a single reward and stick with it. The more rewards the easier it is to get your dog generalising a behaviour.

[huski]

Nekhbet I wasn't asking Craig, I am asking you. I know people who have worked with him so I am not competely naive as to how his training works.

I have already said multilple times that I agree not all dogs will work for food, my question is why rule food rewards out altogether? I dont get why you are being so defensive? Do you disagree that food is a useful tool and that when working with dogs who have a very high food drive it is worth using that to your advantage?

[Aidan3]

Do we even know for a fact that Craig Murray doesn't ever use food?

Grace1979, your dog is definitely food motivated or your dog would be dead. That is not to say that your dog is necessarily going to work for food in normal class training situations without some conditioning. I've never had a single dog not work for food at all although sometimes it's expedient to find something else, and sometimes you're necessarily working with reinforcers that make food less attractive. In any case it is not necessary and I would expect one of Craig's trainers to get results that you will be pleased with with your dog, so best of luck.

[Nekhbet]

Do we even know for a fact that Craig Murray doesn't ever use food?

I know for a fact he does use it but his training is not purely positive reinforcement based.

my question is why rule food rewards out altogether? I dont get why you are being so defensive? Do you disagree that food is a useful tool and that when working with dogs who have a very high food drive it is worth using that to your advantage?

have you run classes? Most people bring dry food, low value food, full up dogs etc. Why bring food if in all probability it will be used sparingly or the dog may be turned off it after 10 minutes. And not all clients listen to specific instructions - I rather provide treats and toys during classes I know works then rely on clients who then cannot work properly in the class. As for food motivated dogs, I worked with a very naughty rottie on saturday. Adores food. I took it all away and made him work just for the privilage of my attention and praise coupled with corrections thrown in. Never seen that dog snap to attention with tail wagging like that before.

Food can also bring out bad habits. Owners teach their dogs do X for a treat. Pull out treat and the same sloppy behaviour is shown. Take away food, add new novel reward and see an improvement. I also see a behavioural difference when you primarily use food rewards too, owners slacken off with their own body language then the dog plateaus faster as it actually has learned nothing but a few tricks. Food is good sometimes even with a food motivated dog, but again, its not the be all and end all. I sparingly use them in my behaviour consults as well and I have success, I also see better bonding and trust between dog and owner when more genuine physical contact is made instead of handing over a treat. As for dogs that snap treats, they get none or a bop on the nose. Teaching gentle is redundant, you shoudlnt have to ask your dogs not to take your whole hand no matter how enthusiastic.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Nekhbet

[huski]

When i rang and spoke to craig he said they dont use food at all.

Aidan this is the post that made me assume they don't use food.

[huski]

have you run classes? Most people bring dry food, low value food, full up dogs etc. Why bring food if in all probability it will be used sparingly or the dog may be turned off it after 10 minutes. And not all clients listen to specific instructions - I rather provide treats and toys during classes I know works then rely on clients who then cannot work properly in the class.

But that is not a problem with food but the way it is being used... we can all agree that no matter the tool, it is all about how it is used. I see people who use all kinds of rewards incorrectly but it is the instructors job to show them how to do it properly.

There are many benefits in using a dog's food drive if it is done properly.

As for food motivated dogs, I worked with a very naughty rottie on saturday. Adores food. I took it all away and made him work just for the privilage of my attention and praise coupled with corrections thrown in. Never seen that dog snap to attention with tail wagging like that before.

I am positive there are many ways to train dogs that don't involve food, but I don't agree those methods can work just as well for all dogs. You are welcome to try and get the same level of drive and focus out of my dog with praise and corrections alone as I do witht praise and food next time you are in Brissy :rolleyes:

Food can also bring out bad habits. Owners teach their dogs do X for a treat. Pull out treat and the same sloppy behaviour is shown. Take away food, add new novel reward and see an improvement. I also see a behavioural difference when you primarily use food rewards too, owners slacken off with their own body language then the dog plateaus faster as it actually has learned nothing but a few tricks. Food is good sometimes even with a food motivated dog, but again, its not the be all and end all. I sparingly use them in my behaviour consults as well and I have success, I also see better bonding and trust between dog and owner when more genuine physical contact is made instead of handing over a treat.

I never said food is the be all and end all, in fact from the very beginning of this thread I said that food is just one of many rewards you can use, but ruling food out in training completely is ruling out a useful and natural drive for many dogs and I don't understand why a trainer would do so. Not all dogs have the same natural drive for prey items or praise as they do for food.

As for dogs that snap treats, they get none or a bop on the nose. Teaching gentle is redundant, you shoudlnt have to ask your dogs not to take your whole hand no matter how enthusiastic.

How is a dog supposed to know what is appropriate behaviour if they aren't taught so I am not a purely positive trainer but wouldn't tolerate anyone "bopping" my dog on the nose.

Edited July 18, 2010 by huski

[Grace1979]

Aidan2 grace eats because she is hungry nothing that i put infront of her at a session does she touch so im not gonna waste my time and money going to a training school like the vip one when she is getting nothing out of it.

I rang craig and thats what he said they dont use food, just telling u what he told me.

[Agility Dogs]

This has been an interesting read.

I just have one quick question.........

Time and time again I've read on this forum that when someone who prefers to use positive methods questions the use of a pinch collar or other physical corrections they are told they are closed minded and need to have a full tool chest. :p , Yet in this thread when someone who relies on aversives to a greater extent is questioned as to why they don't consider some types of reward appropriate or why they would discount them entirely that is somehow not right?

I personally lean towards a positive approach, but my dogs are still corrected (sometimes physically if warranted) if I think it is appropriate. Both my dogs will work without the need for reward (either food or toy) and once they understand the game and have a value for it they are two of the driviest, yet most controlled dogs around.

All that said, I do understand the need for 'perfect' behaviour in working/service dogs and can see why other methods are useful. I'm just not sure that I'd rule out ANY method/tool, especially for a pet or even performance dog where owners don't necessarily have the luxury of rehoming (not a negative - service dogs are there to do a job) the ones that are not up to the job/don't respond to the methods used.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Agility Dogs

[huski]

I will always be one of the first peope to defend the right to use tools prongs and ecollars Agility Dogs so I get where you are coming from. It does seem like a bit of hypocrisy.

Edited July 18, 2010 by huski

[Aidan]

Aidan2 grace eats because she is hungry nothing that i put infront of her at a session does she touch so im not gonna waste my time and money going to a training school like the vip one when she is getting nothing out of it.

I don't blame you either, I'm just saying that your dog IS food motivated or she would be dead. It's a simple fact of life and it's why I use food in classes by default. There are many roads to Rome and I hope you have found a fit.

I rang craig and thats what he said they dont use food, just telling u what he told me.

Yes, which from what I can gather is true of his group obedience classes by default.

[Aidan]

Time and time again I've read on this forum that when someone who prefers to use positive methods questions the use of a pinch collar or other physical corrections they are told they are closed minded and need to have a full tool chest.

It was always nonsense anyway, the vast majority of pet owners do not need a full tool chest and even many professional trainers do quite well without stepping outside their area of expertise.

[Cosmolo]

What agility dogs said. :p

[corvus]

I'm just saying that your dog IS food motivated or she would be dead. It's a simple fact of life and it's why I use food in classes by default.

Agreed. That's why they use food as a reward in behaviour and cognition studies on animals. It's about the only thing they know is universally rewarding, with the possible exception of play in social animals, but play is a bit more tricksy to control.

It is hard with some animals. I know a dog that will work for food as long as nothing else is going on.

[beagie]

have you run classes? Most people bring dry food, low value food, full up dogs etc. Why bring food if in all probability it will be used sparingly or the dog may be turned off it after 10 minutes. And not all clients listen to specific instructions - I rather provide treats and toys during classes I know works then rely on clients who then cannot work properly in the class.

But that is not a problem with food but the way it is being used... we can all agree that no matter the tool, it is all about how it is used. I see people who use all kinds of rewards incorrectly but it is the instructors job to show them how to do it properly.

There are many benefits in using a dog's food drive if it is done properly.

As for food motivated dogs, I worked with a very naughty rottie on saturday. Adores food. I took it all away and made him work just for the privilage of my attention and praise coupled with corrections thrown in. Never seen that dog snap to attention with tail wagging like that before.

I am positive there are many ways to train dogs that don't involve food, but I don't agree those methods can work just as well for all dogs. You are welcome to try and get the same level of drive and focus out of my dog with praise and corrections alone as I do witht praise and food next time you are in Brissy

Food can also bring out bad habits. Owners teach their dogs do X for a treat. Pull out treat and the same sloppy behaviour is shown. Take away food, add new novel reward and see an improvement. I also see a behavioural difference when you primarily use food rewards too, owners slacken off with their own body language then the dog plateaus faster as it actually has learned nothing but a few tricks. Food is good sometimes even with a food motivated dog, but again, its not the be all and end all. I sparingly use them in my behaviour consults as well and I have success, I also see better bonding and trust between dog and owner when more genuine physical contact is made instead of handing over a treat.

I never said food is the be all and end all, in fact from the very beginning of this thread I said that food is just one of many rewards you can use, but ruling food out in training completely is ruling out a useful and natural drive for many dogs and I don't understand why a trainer would do so. Not all dogs have the same natural drive for prey items or praise as they do for food.

As for dogs that snap treats, they get none or a bop on the nose. Teaching gentle is redundant, you shoudlnt have to ask your dogs not to take your whole hand no matter how enthusiastic.

How is a dog supposed to know what is appropriate behaviour if they aren't taught so :D I am not a purely positive trainer but wouldn't tolerate anyone "bopping" my dog on the nose.

I certainly would not stand for anyone bopping my dog on the nose either, as for the fact that Beagles would be dead if they wern't food orientated that is

silly, I have a Beagle yes he is clicker training and very well, no he does not need to be constantly eating that is for lazy owners who do not do anything with

their dogs, dogs are just as happy with a job of work to do, I have heard so many people say silly things about Beagles needing to eat all the time well mine

doesn't because he is not being bought up that way, and he most certainly will not end up to be a blob because he is not exercised or is over fed.

I do know one thing both he and my Wirehaired pointer will shut down if you start getting to much of a bully, otherwise they are great dogs to handle

maybe they do not learn as fast as a GSD BC or working breed but boy what fun when you see the penny drop Beagie