Craig Murray Dog Training

[Nekhbet]

I rather provide treats and toys during classes I know works then rely on clients who then cannot work properly in the class.

There are many benefits in using a dog's food drive if it is done properly.

pay closer attention Huski. I never said I dont use food, I never said Craig doesnt use food, neither of us use it on a regular basis and he probably uses it more sparingly then I do. But we both believe in making a dog work for what they get, and setting the bar higher to get your rewards. If you like using food for your beagle fine, thats your opinion but your opinion too is based simply on your own dogs since thats where your experience lies. And I think you're far from the person to teach me about using drives to enhance a dogs performance.

a useful and natural drive for many dogs and I don't understand why a trainer would do so. Not all dogs have the same natural drive for prey items or praise as they do for food.

quite a few other drives are just as if not more useful then food. Some drives can supress food drive. Other dogs behaviour can suppress or enhance certain drives in your own dog. The environment itself can tip the value of a reward up or down. I could starve my Malinois for a couple of days, but put a chop down next to the lure coursing field and she'd rather chase then eat. The only thing she would then value is water, even then only when she got desperate.

How is a dog supposed to know what is appropriate behaviour if they aren't taught so I am not a purely positive trainer but wouldn't tolerate anyone "bopping" my dog on the nose.

Thats how they are taught and they only need one lesson to get the idea. Snap at me and the hand will be pushed into your nose, younger pups or soft dogs simply have the treat removed/closed in a fist until they learn. Bite down on my hand and you get a thumb under the tongue. I dont smack the dog on the face FFS what do you take me for. I dont see the need to attach a command to the action - dogs dont need to be led step by step like ignoramasus so many people seem to take them for, or over anthropomorphise them to have to have constant conversations with their animals. There are some hard and fast rules that I dont need to tell me dogs, they know because they are taught, you bite me there is an unpleasant consequence, be nice and you get the treat. Basic basic basic concept there. I frankly think having to constantly ask your dog not to bite your hand in the process is stupid. Attaching a command also does not make it an automatic behaviour, you are now making it a commanded behaviour, a pattern, a partial condition - so unless you ask, your dog will not assume it is a complete no no. There's wriggle room in there for snapping or bad behaviour, by then the rewards in its mouth.

And please explain to me how repeating 'geeeentle' to an animal that has no human verbal skills or born with the ability to speak english, as I annoyingly see so many people who then have the look on their face like "will he get my fingers this time" do, teaches the dog that you dont want them to snap your hand?

[huski]

pay closer attention Huski. I never said I dont use food, I never said Craig doesnt use food, neither of us use it on a regular basis and he probably uses it more sparingly then I do. But we both believe in making a dog work for what they get, and setting the bar higher to get your rewards.

I'm just going by what the OP has said, I never said you don't use food rewards, I was just asking why a trainer would choose not to use them at all.

If you like using food for your beagle fine, thats your opinion but your opinion too is based simply on your own dogs since thats where your experience lies. And I think you're far from the person to teach me about using drives to enhance a dogs performance.

My opinion in this instance is based on what I and the trainers I work with closely know what will work best with my dog. I'm not trying to teach you about anything - I am simply (attempting to) have a discussion with you. Again, why so defensive? I'm only spending my time asking you these questions because I am interested in your response, not for any other reason, did you stop to think that I am actually interested in your response because I respect your experience and genuinely want to know what/how a trainer would choose not to use food in training?

quite a few other drives are just as if not more useful then food. Some drives can supress food drive. Other dogs behaviour can suppress or enhance certain drives in your own dog. The environment itself can tip the value of a reward up or down. I could starve my Malinois for a couple of days, but put a chop down next to the lure coursing field and she'd rather chase then eat. The only thing she would then value is water, even then only when she got desperate.

Now it's my turn to tell you to pay attention. I've already said, several times, that food is not a dominant drive for every dog and that there are other drives to work in other than food depending on the dog in question. I too know dogs who will choose prey over food.

Just like your Mal would choose prey over food, my dog would choose food over prey... would you persevere with food drive over prey with your Mal in all instances?

Thats how they are taught and they only need one lesson to get the idea. Snap at me and the hand will be pushed into your nose, younger pups or soft dogs simply have the treat removed/closed in a fist until they learn. Bite down on my hand and you get a thumb under the tongue. I dont smack the dog on the face FFS what do you take me for. I dont see the need to attach a command to the action - dogs dont need to be led step by step like ignoramasus so many people seem to take them for, or over anthropomorphise them to have to have constant conversations with their animals. There are some hard and fast rules that I dont need to tell me dogs, they know because they are taught, you bite me there is an unpleasant consequence, be nice and you get the treat. Basic basic basic concept there. I frankly think having to constantly ask your dog not to bite your hand in the process is stupid. Attaching a command also does not make it an automatic behaviour, you are now making it a commanded behaviour, a pattern, a partial condition - so unless you ask, your dog will not assume it is a complete no no. There's wriggle room in there for snapping or bad behaviour, by then the rewards in its mouth.

Again... why so defensive I never said you smack the dog, I just wouldn't want someone bopping my dog on the nose. My dogs definitely don't snatch treats, my Siberian to the point where he won't ever put his teeth on me, he always takes food with his lips

And please explain to me how repeating 'geeeentle' to an animal that has no human verbal skills or born with the ability to speak english, as I annoyingly see so many people who then have the look on their face like "will he get my fingers this time" do, teaches the dog that you dont want them to snap your hand?

I never said that I use that method to teach dogs to take food nicely

[Quickasyoucan]

Hope you go well with your class Grace1979, let us know how you get on will be interesting to hear about the classes.

Besides, I suppose it makes a change from the classes in my area where they will only train with food. Seriously I am sure if he is a good trainer he will find what is best for your dog.

Off topic I have never had a dog, mine or family that snapped for food and tried to take your fingers off. Just curious is it a learned behaviour as people tend to withdraw their hands quickly?? or do some dogs do it and some dogs not??

[corvus]

And please explain to me how repeating 'geeeentle' to an animal that has no human verbal skills or born with the ability to speak english, as I annoyingly see so many people who then have the look on their face like "will he get my fingers this time" do, teaches the dog that you dont want them to snap your hand?

Well actually, there may be something in that. Patricia McConnell did a PhD on the kinds of noises people made to their animals. In The Other End of the Leash she says all across the world in different languages people use slow, round sounds to calm an animal and sharp, short noises to get them more excited. If "geeeeentle" is a slow, low-pitched noise it may serve to calm a dog, which reduces the likelihood of the dog getting a bit excited about snatching treats.

Not saying that's the case, just offering a potential consideration.

[megan_]

And please explain to me how repeating 'geeeentle' to an animal that has no human verbal skills or born with the ability to speak english, as I annoyingly see so many people who then have the look on their face like "will he get my fingers this time" do, teaches the dog that you dont want them to snap your hand?

Well actually, there may be something in that. Patricia McConnell did a PhD on the kinds of noises people made to their animals. In The Other End of the Leash she says all across the world in different languages people use slow, round sounds to calm an animal and sharp, short noises to get them more excited. If "geeeeentle" is a slow, low-pitched noise it may serve to calm a dog, which reduces the likelihood of the dog getting a bit excited about snatching treats.

Not saying that's the case, just offering a potential consideration.

Nekbets post made me laugh. All the people at the local dog park who have rough dogs screach "gentle, gentle!" as their dog gives another one a thumping!

[Erny]

Nekbets post made me laugh. All the people at the local dog park who have rough dogs screach "gentle, gentle!" as their dog gives another one a thumping!

LOL .... from the get go, the very first time I ever said "gentle" (softly, roundly) to my boy when he was a pup, he got so excited. I have no idea why, but that word still, 2 years on, gets him all tail waggy happy, aroused and rough/excited.

The same with the word "cross" (said in neutral tone) when we go to cross roads. That word tended to have him going off the rictor scale and we'd go from our good loose lead under control walk to way out of control again. And just when I'd collect it all together, there'd be another road to cross. He's a bit better with this now, but the "gentle" still has him all excited, wriggly and bouncy and you have to be careful that he doesn't hit his tough skull with yours in his excitement. .... Maybe I should have made his release command "gentle".

[Nekhbet]

Well actually, there may be something in that. Patricia McConnell did a PhD on the kinds of noises people made to their animals. In The Other End of the Leash she says all across the world in different languages people use slow, round sounds to calm an animal and sharp, short noises to get them more excited. If "geeeeentle" is a slow, low-pitched noise it may serve to calm a dog, which reduces the likelihood of the dog getting a bit excited about snatching treats.

thats basic canine knowledge that sharp noises (eg as in prey like noises) will excite a carnivore. If I squeak to my ferrets they go mental.

My point is, why do you have to command it at all. It should be just part of life between you and the dog, ie, you never ever snatch or bite things from my hand. If you are having to command an animal not to exhibit rude behaviour it means that in some instances that dog will find it acceptable to snap. That is my point. I teach all dogs that are here snapping, mouthing, biting people is NEVER EVER acceptable. No matter what I have in my hand I never have to tell a dog not to snap, they know it's not allowed and getting the treat is the icing on the cake that lets them know their behaviour is acceptable, and to repeat calm in future.

Huski I gave an example of the rottweiler and the snatching incidents, they have nothing to do with your dogs at all. I dont know why you included them except to tell me your beagle has extreme food drive. My comments were also not directed towards yours either so maybe we got mixed up. It's horses for courses, the way I trained the rottweiler may or may not work on your beagle, or it may be detrimental. I dont put one method on all dogs I was simply giving an example that even a dog with strong food drive can be trained without food.

You again are simply on the assumption that no food is used. Like I said, and I'll simplify, they simply said they dont use it PRIMARILY as a form of training and not to bring it. Craig himself does use food when warranted but it is not the primary reinforcer used for every dog. When you train in a behavioural manner you dont always need food despite having a strong food drive, prey drive etc in the dog.

Nekbets post made me laugh. All the people at the local dog park who have rough dogs screach "gentle, gentle!" as their dog gives another one a thumping!

To me its in the same category of Logic FAIL as when a persons dog is being a rough arse with another dog and they go 'oooh he's only playing' or when a dog is on leash and giving go away signals with another dog in its face then gets a smack on the head for biting other rude dog. It's just backward.

[corvus]

Sometimes if you speak more softly than usual to a dog they get excited. My last dog used to practically do backflips in excitement if you whispered to her. Never figured that out, but I think your body language seems more attentive to them than usual as you are leaning forwards and looking at them. If I whisper to Kivi he is typically oblivious as he is to a lot of things (think, "Kivi, sit.... Kivi... Kivi, hello, anyone home..." *tap him on the head, he looks up* "Sit." *He sits*). Erik gets very attentive if I look at him and speak softly. He is just so sure we are about to do something super fun.

[corvus]

My point is, why do you have to command it at all. It should be just part of life between you and the dog, ie, you never ever snatch or bite things from my hand. If you are having to command an animal not to exhibit rude behaviour it means that in some instances that dog will find it acceptable to snap. That is my point. I teach all dogs that are here snapping, mouthing, biting people is NEVER EVER acceptable. No matter what I have in my hand I never have to tell a dog not to snap, they know it's not allowed and getting the treat is the icing on the cake that lets them know their behaviour is acceptable, and to repeat calm in future.

I don't with my current dogs. I never had to teach it to Kivi as he lips everything out of your hands very gently. Erik is a quick learner and the food goes away if he tries to snatch. Didn't put it on cue. Every now and then during an intense clicker session if he's really into it he'll start being a bit rough towards the end. He's never left a mark, though.

My last dog had a gently command and was actually corrected whenever she snatched. Didn't make any difference at all. She was snatching until the day she died unless you remembered to remind her "gently" first. Gently only came in because the corrections didn't work. I swear she would forget. She never snatched food that wasn't being delivered directly to her mouth, though. Erik tried it once or twice and got told to down if he wanted something. Didn't have to do anything unpleasant to him. He knew downs usually get rewarded so he downed. Didn't get any of the goods, but he has a lot of faith in the down.

[lovemesideways]

Hope your classes go well!!!!

and, All discussions and arguments aside,

Curious to the reasons why you wouldn't use food Nekhbet, and I'm not asking in a "rar rar rant you should always use food!" way, just curious and interested in potentially learning more about working with other drives

If you had a dog that was so obviously insane for food far beyond everything else, would you try to work with another drive or just use that one?

[gsdog2]

Hope your classes go well!!!!

and, All discussions and arguments aside,

Curious to the reasons why you wouldn't use food Nekhbet, and I'm not asking in a "rar rar rant you should always use food!" way, just curious and interested in potentially learning more about working with other drives

If you had a dog that was so obviously insane for food far beyond everything else, would you try to work with another drive or just use that one?

Can I just add to this question by asking if you have two dogs and one has a huge prey drive and the other has an equally huge food drive wouldn't you just go with what suits each individual dog?

[corvus]

I wouldn't dare presume to answer for Nekhbet, but I can offer my thoughts on the subject for the sake of discussion.

IMO it doesn't have to be as simple as "what the dog works best for". Sometimes dogs don't know that they're really gonna love something until you spend a bit of time encouraging them to discover a love for it. There is value in having different types of rewards available for use in training, partially because it makes for quick generalising, partially because it keeps the dog interested, and partially because different rewards become associated with different levels of arousal. To me, arousal is a big factor in what behaviours are likely to occur at any given moment. So if you want a very physically active behaviour, it's helpful to have the dog very aroused. But if you want a calm, quiet behaviour, it's helpful to have the dog at low arousal. This is a bigger deal for some dogs than others. I don't clicker train any quiet or calm behaviours for Erik because it's like shooting myself in the foot. He's just gonna get excited. Same for active play rewards, unless I want to teach him to ramp up his arousal and then drop it back down again in a short time frame.

Now throw into the mix that with some dogs especially different drives can be suppressive to each other. If I'm playing crazy tug games with Erik and I want him to calm down, starting a sit-stay game with food as a reward is a very quick and efficient way of doing that. I know a few people that use food to bring a dog down in arousal to a more workable level. So if you have a very prey driven dog and you want them to be at a high arousal level, food is probably not the best choice, although food is one of those lovely reinforcers that is usually quite adaptable. If you have a dog that wants to chase cats, I'd be tackling that with play rewards. Unless the dog was SO aroused by the cat that they couldn't hear an invitation to play and then I'd be using click/treat. Then again, if we were talking about my own cats indoors I wouldn't use either because I'd be aiming for calm behaviour, not just bringing them down a bit or distracting them with a legitimate outlet.

So to me, it depends on what behaviour you have and what behaviour you want. My low drive dog works beautifully for food, but there's no way he was ever going to learn that he can jump without somehow raising his arousal more than food does, so I used toys to teach him to jump and then he realised it was an option in food training as well.

Edited July 20, 2010 by corvus

[Aidan]

A reinforcer is defined by it's effect on behaviour - if it doesn't increase or maintain a response, it is not a reinforcer. Under most conditions food will be a reinforcer, it is a basic biological need and that need cannot be escaped for long. But if the dog is satiated (does not have a biological need for more food at that moment) or the sympathetic nervous system is excited and has inhibited the digestive system, food will (usually) not increase or maintain behaviour.

[Nekhbet]

I use food but I reserve it more for jackpot rewards then constant bits. For puppies food is great more often but I still like them to learn that human rewards and owners are high value. This way I never have a dog that expects food rewards, or has to be 'weaned' off food, or performs only when food is about, the owner is a reward in itself. If the dog does not like the owner as a reward then I look at why - are they dull, boring, have they constantly talkede/grumbled/yelled at the dog etc. A dog is a pack animal, it is a rare dog that will absolutely not perk up for praise. I had a german shepherd here who had no human contact up until 10 weeks of age, and despite being semi feral he still warmed up to human praise and wanting affection as a reward, performed well for it and listened. And I also teach less is more with talking to the dog. I do not like handlers "ahh, No, BAD DOG etc" at the dog while training. That is what the leash and collar are for, to guide and correct. If the owners switch to only positive verbalisation you see their entire demenour changes, the dog then becomes interested in the handler like 'wow, you're pretty awesome what do you wanna do next!". Food then becomes the icing on the take, sort of like your christmas bonus at the end of the year for a super job. prey drive training is a little different depending on what you want to teach, but again if the dog is too toy focussed that is hidden away and used as a bonus in the beginning until the idea of the handler being the primary focus is achieved.

I dont have to teach 'look' as a separate command, instead i have clients reward the dog for natural focus which means they are not looking back at your hands for a treat, they are looking at your face and WANT to look at your face as they are being reinforced for it. I see so many dogs look at their owners, get nothing, then the owners struggle with consistancy of commanding the look as the dog is learning its more a commanded trick then focus needing to be just part of what you do. Your dog should always want to look to you for guidance, and praise should be given every time no matter the age or stage of the dog. My dogs still stare at me because no matter what we're doing, if I say their name and they look at me they get at least a 'oh what a good dog!' and occasionally a biscuit comes flying too

If you had a dog that was so obviously insane for food far beyond everything else, would you try to work with another drive or just use that one?

You use what is right for the dog and what gets you results. Even a dog insane for food, sometimes that food drive is in overdrive and their focus is simply on that. So I give it less often and teach them its super special and you get it for listening to me. I find it better then food, food, food, food, food, food then that becomes the dogs preoccupying thought. I want ME to be that thought, and the food to just cement the concept because the dog finds it super duper awesomely special.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Nekhbet

[corvus]

I use food but I reserve it more for jackpot rewards then constant bits. For puppies food is great more often but I still like them to learn that human rewards and owners are high value. This way I never have a dog that expects food rewards, or has to be 'weaned' off food, or performs only when food is about, the owner is a reward in itself.

You know, if you reward a dog with food enough and are just the teensiest bit clever about how you deliver it, your dog comes to associate you with food and then interacting with you becomes a secondary reinforcer in itself. I don't wean my dogs off food treats. They can expect one every time and usually get it. On the odd occasions that I don't have food with me, miraculously all my training doesn't instantly fall apart. The dogs perform just as well as when they know I have food on me. Thing is, it's easy to have food on you most of the time. The time you don't they are so used to doing what they are told and getting rewarded for it that they just do it anyway before they consider whether you have food or not. Obviously you will, so why would they ever question it? They don't. Even when you don't reward them for a whole outing they still just do it. Conditioned I guess.

My answer to anyone who has a dog that only performs when you are dangling a piece of food in front of them is to put it in your pocket and then ask for the behaviour. They know you have the food, so if they want it they'll perform. You're just taking the extra cue out of the equation. Do it enough without the lure and the problem will go away.

[Nekhbet]

They can expect one every time and usually get it. On the odd occasions that I don't have food with me, miraculously all my training doesn't instantly fall apart.

It is not easy or convenient for everyone to carry food. This is the difference about experience with your own dogs and clients, they give you parameters and you have to work within them. Plus I want owners to have better handling skills by interacting more with their pets then relying on food to build it. Take away the crutch and I have good results with it plus owners learn to relax and pay attention to their dogs behaviour.

your dog comes to associate you with food and then interacting with you becomes a secondary reinforcer in itself. I don't wean my dogs off food treats. They can expect one every time and usually get it.

I dont want my dogs seeing me as a food dispenser. I treat food like the icing on the cake or a welcome bonus, if they dont get it it's not an issue either because they're more then happy to get a pat.

My answer to anyone who has a dog that only performs when you are dangling a piece of food in front of them is to put it in your pocket and then ask for the behaviour. They know you have the food, so if they want it they'll perform. You're just taking the extra cue out of the equation. Do it enough without the lure and the problem will go away.

I just cut out the middle man, I dont exclusively use luring in my training either, hence I dont need to have food involved all the time.

[megan_]

I don't wean my dogs off food treats. They can expect one every time and usually get it.

Just curious Corvus - is this every time they do something you ask or is it just for training sessions? I know a lot of pet owners who don't want to use food because, rightly or wrongly, they believe that their dog will only "perform" when given a treat. A method that meets the needs of the owner and the dog is what is needed, and this would suit some pet owners.

Most people don't need their dog to have a good drive and perform obedience and agility - they just want a dog that obeys the house rules, doesn't jump up, sits and has a good recall.

[Aidan]

I know a lot of pet owners who don't want to use food because, rightly or wrongly, they believe that their dog will only "perform" when given a treat.

I very rarely have food on me. I teach just about everything with food. My dogs are better than most pets. One way or another, without actually going into too much technical guff, I think it helps if we can give good instruction in the absolute basics of learning theory along the way.

[corvus]

I don't wean my dogs off food treats. They can expect one every time and usually get it.

Just curious Corvus - is this every time they do something you ask or is it just for training sessions? I know a lot of pet owners who don't want to use food because, rightly or wrongly, they believe that their dog will only "perform" when given a treat. A method that meets the needs of the owner and the dog is what is needed, and this would suit some pet owners.

Every time I ask them to do something. It took a bit of learning to remember to have treats all the time, but now it's a way of life. Usually check the treat bag before we go anywhere. At home it's more likely to be a NILIF situation, so the reward is more flexible. I found it was easier to just carry treats than to wean them off treats. Even if I take them for a run and I'm not taking the treat bag I often pop something in my pocket if I have one, but more because I never know when they're gonna do something I will want to reward rather than because they won't behave without the treats. There's always the bridge to fall back on ("good boy"). That and a couple of times I ran with Kivi when he was in a fear period and had to employ some quick counter-conditioning. When you have them on you, you find uses for them all the time.

I get that not everyone can be bothered with treats. That's fine. If Nek has good results with her method, that's fine. I'm not arguing. It was only a couple of years ago that I suddenly decided to teach myself to carry treats with me. I remember how much of a drag I thought it was going to be. It wasn't. It just wasn't, and I wasn't to know that until I tried it. Just took a little reorganising and learning a couple of new habits.

[huski]

Corvus do you mean you reward for every command they comply with? I.e. You will ask them to do one thing, then treat or might you ask for multiple commands with a treat at the end?

Nekhbet thanks for the further explanation. I get where you are coming from